It’s a clear halachah even if you don’t like it:
חייך קודמים לחיי חברך “Chayecha Kodmim” – your life takes precedence over his life. You’re not obligated to risk YOUR child’s life with vaccination that have proven to have side effects. Period!
They were proven on mice.. I read the whole portfolio and as far as I know I’m not a mouse and niether are my kids. In addition, the Rav of every shul is koveya the rules and if this is what he says then so be it.
No, they were proven on children. The Vaccine Injury court has awarded more than 4 Billion dollars in compensation for vaccine injuries and acknowledges that its probably only about 1% of actual injuries due to the huge amount of under reporting and difficulty in getting your case through the system. You can also look at the insert in each vaccine packet written by the manufacturer which states the adverse effects that have happened. You can dig your head as far deep into the ground as you can put it, and pretend there are no injuries, but if you choose to actually look into it, you will realize just how many vaccine injuries are occurring in children of all ages and adults as well.
Nobody is telling them that they aren’t allowed to daven. They are fully welcome to start their own minyan, properly called Chayecha Kodmin, and pick a rabbi who is in agreement with their shita.
Hey Marc, you are wrong again: Chayecha Kodmin is talking about when you have a last water bottle in a dessert; it doesn’t give you permission to steal someone else’s water bottle. If a shul or a school doesn’t want you there, then get out as requested, and start your own community with likeminded hippies. Besides, Chayecha Kadmin doesn’t apply here all together, as measles vaccine has been around for decades and has a record of no life threatening nor even serious complications. All these autism claims are a complete scam.
Okay great. So now we’ll have the Vaccine Police stationed in front of every Shul. Either produce legal documents from your Medical Doctor testifying that you are completely up to date on your vaccines or you will be kicked off the premises. Wonderful. To my Michutanim, sorry I can’t allow you to attend the Oif Ruf. I have no idea if you are vaccinated. You can even carry your papers on Shabbos without an eruv, as the chachomim on the internet paskened that it’s mamesh pikuach nefesh. Pikuach nefesh is docheh Shabbos. Please stay away from your anikel’s bris. Your documents have expired. I don’t trust you. I can’t help but wonder what the next crisis will be.
Anyway, based on all the PC love Rabbi’s who have been preaching on this website about accepting and loving ALL Jews regardless of sins, I feel confident they will let into their Shuls and Yeshivos even those who were not vaccinated.
Regarding your last point: “based on all the PC love Rabbi’s who have been preaching on this website about accepting and loving ALL Jews regardless of sins, I feel confident they will let into their Shuls and Yeshivos even those who were not vaccinated,” of course, I certainly WISH that this is what will happen. However, there are serious doubts.
You see, there are really TWO religions here that people are following:
#1.) Is the religion of “Judaism,” that we who follow it more commonly call it “The Torah.”
#2.) Is the religion of “Modern Medicine.”
So yes, while we in the Frum communities profess to be adherents of the religion of Judaism-Torah, a gigantic portion of our communities, very likely even the vast majority, are also adherents of the religion of Modern Medicine. And those who are adherents of the religion of Modern Medicine are very, very, VERY strongly devout adherents of it; whatever THEY (the doctors of Modern Medicine) “say,” is holy, of holy, of holy, of holies! It is raised aloft and loudly proclaimed and reverently revered infinitely more than any of the words of the Nevi’im in Tanach. No one can ever “dare” to disagree with it; to argue with it is going against the “proven” “proofs” of holy, holy, holy, holy science itself!
But the “Anti-Vaxxers,” they HAVE dared to talk against and defy one of the most sacred of sacred doctrines of Science & Modern Medicine! OOOOO! OOOOO! OOOOO! OOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
So the “rabbis who have been preaching . . . loving all Jews regardless of sins,” oh yea, they will gladly and openly accept and be kind to Jews whose sin is in THE TORAH: Those who do not keep Shabbos, those who do not eat Kosher, those who steal, those who embezzle, those who are M’noafim, even those who do Toeiva, Rachmana Litzlan, these rabbis will have a place in their heart for sympathy for them. But the Anti-Vaxxers, their sin is in the holy, holy, tenants of holy, holy, holy MODERN MEDICINE! They are “Shotim”! They are “Rotzchim!” They are “Rodfim”! They are “selfish”! They are “Irresponsible”! They are THE most despicable of despicable of despicable of people on this earth! No kindness to them! No sympathy to them!
My sarcastic depiction of Modern Medicine being a “religion” is not my line; I first saw it eloquently presented in one of the books written by a prominent Jewish pediatrician, Robert S. Mendelsohn, MD, Alav HaShalom (1926 – 1988). Dr. Mendelsohn graduated from the medical school at the University of Chicago, was board certified in Pediatrics, had his own pediatric office for many years, but later on treated people of all ages. For many years, he was also a professor at the medical schools of Northwestern University and the University of Illinois. He authored five books plus a newsletter and a newspaper column. (Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._Mendelsohn)
He was an outspoken vehement critic of what occurred in the Modern Medical world, stating that its illness treatments frequently did more harm than the illnesses themselves. He portrayed Modern Medicine as a religion whose god is death and whose ethical doctrine is DIShonesty and where the infant vaccinations are, like the Christian Baptism, the child’s rite of induction into the religion. The particular book I was referring to above is titled: “Confessions of a Medical Heretic,” (pub. 1979 & 1991) which Dr. Mendelsohn wrote in a humorous tone. In it, he greatly elaborated on the religion aspect, and concluded the volume with the blunt advice to everyone to “leave the church of Modern Medicine”!
We have an opinion so we bully till everyone agrees with us. Kind of Like the Jewish version of CNN. The fact that Rav Chaim, Rav Malkiel and Rav Shmuel all say a school cannot keep an unvaxed kid out of school, that is not enough. We know better then them.
I agree that kids that aren’t vaccinated should be isolated physically but I do NOT agree with your comment about CNN and bullying… And that Rav chaim etc.. There is bechira in yiddishkeit and as it says Asei Lecha Rav; there are more rabbanim than the ones you mentioned. The ones you mentioned are big but not everyone goes to them with sheilos. Saying what you say is also a form of Bullying.
We have an “opinion”? No. YOU have an opinion. We are following the advice of the doctors of our era. That is Hashem’s expectation of us. After that we apply”Shomer Pesa’im Hashem”, should they be Ch’V wrong. You have an “opinion”, that I am afraid is shared among the fringe of the greater society…and now we all carry the very public shame of your chilul Hahsem.
If you are vaccinated than you “ARE PROTECTED” so why can’t not vaccinated people come, if they don’t care about themselves, it should not bother you, obviously someone has an agenda. Maybe the FDA “Mafia” – yes I said it “Mafia” has all the doctors including ehrliche doctors such as some of the lakewood ones unable to judge this matter correctly…..
Dear mavin, please educate yourself before you embarrass yourself with gibberish: even though measles vaccine immunize most people, due to differences in individual immune systems, no vaccine is guaranteed to work on every person all the time – the effect is achieved by chocking out the disease’s transfer by making a certain critical-mass percentage of the population immunized non carriers. When silly dark-ages antivaxers refuse to vaccinate in mass, the immunized percentage decreases, hence the disease is able to transfer again, and to hit anyone with a weakened immune system, regardless of being vaccinated.
If you are vaccinated than you “ARE PROTECTED” so why can’t not vaccinated people come to shul, if they don’t care about themselves, it should not bother you, obviously someone has an agenda. Maybe the FDA “Mafia” – yes I said it FDA “Mafia” has all the doctors, including ehrliche doctors, such as some of the lakewood ones, unable to judge this matter correctly…..and maybe someone should bring proof that these shots even help. So far almost al the infected people DID take the shots. FACT. Check it out for yourself. Don’t be a parrot and repeat something that even the most heimishe doctor can’t bring anything to back up the need to vaccinate. This writer spent many many days and weeks to find ANY PROOF to allow my children to get a chabura that should be allowed and was unable to find. What chutzpa to clock yiden from davening because of the FDA’s greed.
I’m so sorry but I have read the portfolio and all the proof that vaccines are dangerous; with an open mind. And haven’t found any real proof. It was tested on mice etc… There was nothing in there that convinced me.
Please educate yourself before you embarrass yourself with gibberish: even though measles vaccine immunize most people, due to differences in individual immune systems, no vaccine is guaranteed to work on every person all the time – the effect is achieved by chocking out the disease’s transfer by making a certain critical-mass percentage of the population immunized non carriers. When silly dark-ages antivaxers refuse to vaccinate in mass, the immunized percentage decreases, hence the disease is able to transfer again, and to hit anyone with a weakened immune system, regardless of being vaccinated.
Fact is that all diseases eventually become eradicated naturally. The vaccines create viral shedding and keep the diseases alive. Go do your homework! Read up about viral shedding! This is basic science!!!
don’t worry they have a b.s. in horse manure. they know better than the doctors with medical degrees that have come to a universal consensus on the issue. after all their homemade degree should trump the doctors right? right? ???
Of course this a sick joke put out by some nut-case. It doesn’t name a single Shul that has or will implement such a rule. Some ignorant idiot put out the sign as bate hoping some guillibe ill informed board member or rabbi will latch on to it. Total fakery.
I am a member of two Lakewood shuls – one of them sent an email with the exact words in the article to all members signed by the Rov and the other, the Rov spoke Friday night saying the same thing.
If vaccination does not confer solid immunity against infection to all recipients, the threshold level of vaccination required to protect a population increases. If vaccination protects only a proportion E among those vaccinated (E standing for effectiveness against infection transmission, in the field), then the critical vaccination coverage level should be Vc=(1− 1/R0)/E. We can see from this that if E is <(1− 1/R0) it would be impossible to eliminate an infection even by vaccinating the whole population. Similarly, waning vaccine-induced immunity demands higher levels of coverage or regular booster vaccination.
In Simple English: The vaccine does not provide 100% immunity. Therefore for it to work effectively the community needs to maintain ~95% or greater levels of vaccination. So yes if you don't vaccinate please stay away from me and my kids. I love you. But just in case I/my kids are one of those for whom the vaccine did not work please, please, pretty please with a cherry on top… stay away from us.
OK. So if this is the case, why get the vaccine at all? If it is not 100% effective or 95% effective why take the risk? Also, children who have not been vaccinated should be more worried about coming to close to children who have been vaccinated, because vaccinated children are at risk of not only getting the disease but infecting others.
in china despite a measles vaccination rate of 99% since 2010 and 98% since 1990, there were 38,159 measles cases in 2010. in 2014 that number rose to 52,628.
There is no such a thing as herd immunity in regard to vaccines.
Herd immunity can only come from natural infections which will make the person immune for life.
Dear 8:30, your “facts” are made up lies, which you gullibly picked up at some idiotic antivaxer site. Here is a solid unrefutable fact: measles was practically eradicated in the US for decades until enough fools signed up on the dark-ages anti vaccine crusade.
This has to be a joke. If the vaccine is soooo safe why are pro-vaxx people concerned about contracting the disease from anti-vaxxers? The fact that shuls would stoop so low (if this is true) to deny Yidden their right to daven should make many people pause. For sure, this approach is not Jewish and certainly not Ahavas Yisroel.
Just look at the pictures of the child with measles! How could any parent be opposed! Even if it is not 100% effective, say only 90%, how can you not give your child the best!It behooves me! Anti-Maven, you stated the case masterfully! I think that any parent who opts out for their children be brought up on charges of abuse!
so talk to your certified doctor about your worries! not some random person on any website with no evidence to back it up!
do you trust every kashrus for meat? and when your unsure do you walk up to a goy and ask him what he recommends? or do you ask a Rabbi?
There’s no rational argument that will sway these anti-vaxers. You can’t reason with shotim, that’s why they are potur from all mitzvos. Unfortunately they will only be swayed when one of their own friends or relatives gets seriously ill. And unfortunately now we have lethal shotim running around among us.
chas veshalom, many of the antivaxers had their own friends, relatives and children who got seriously ill from the vaccine, and it swayed them to stop giving their kids vaccines.
I’m not from Lakewood but it is disturbing to read such language against fellow Yidden. In my “out of town” community we value each Jew enough that we can’t afford to exclude people from our minyanim for whatever reason. This seems to be quite ridiculous… Maybe when you have a large tzibbur together you forget some basics…
To “Mitz’ta’air”: You have made a very excellent observation that, B’Ezras Hashem, I would like to elaborate on.
I AM LITERALLY SEVERELY PAINED AND HORRIFICALLY HORRIFIED AT THE NEARLY ENDLESS REMARKS HERE OF THE MOST EXCEEDINGLY OF EXCEEDINGLY EXTREME VILE HATRED AND VEHEMENT DEFAMATION OF PEOPLE WHO DECLINE VACCINATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just the term “Anti-Vaxxers” is itself already quite derogatory, and then there are the numerous despicable accusations and sick titles — of total outright lies and fabrications — being heavily heaped upon them.
On the contrary, the people who do not vaccinate are extremely RESPONSIBLE people! They are absolutely not going to allow themselves and their children to be injected with poison concoctions that are well known to cause horrific harm — as numerous other comments posted here have superbly pointed out.
I would like to know if you people who are spewing all this vile upon — as you call them — those “awful” “Anti-Vaxxers,” have said EVEN ONE TENTH as much vehemence and hatred upon that sludge of scum, Robert Bowers, Yimach Shemo V’Zichro, who massacred eleven Jews last week in Pittsburgh, or upon all Nazi SS officers and soldiers, Yimach Shemam V’Zichram, who, of course, are the real Rodfim and Rotzchim!!
While the mainstream media is busy making a mockery of itself with runaway hysteria “witch hunt” hate speech against parents who choose not to poison their children with toxic vaccines, the real story on the measles outbreak remains entirely unreported in any mainstream media outlet.
What story is that? The true story about how Big Pharma’s own vaccine scientists blew the whistle on MMR vaccine research fraud taking place over a decade ago, warning that the vaccine’s approval by the FDA was based on “falsified results” and that the fraudulent MMR vaccine was the “primary cause” of a measles outbreak in 2006, as they state in their own words (see below).
The senior management of the world’s top vaccine producer was actively engaged in the fraud, according to the whistleblowers, even going so far as to test the vaccine against contrived “laboratory” strains of infectious viruses rather than testing them against strains circulating in the real world. This created an MMR vaccine with results that could be faked to appear effective while actually conferring almost no real-world protection at all, thereby ensuring an eventual outbreak that the media would seize upon to call for more vaccines.
Dear Chicken Little, the vaccines are not toxic, the big pharma is not making any money on vaccines, and you shouldn’t treat your mental disorder by banging your head against a wall.
Once again! the pro- vaxxers are resorting to name calling.
The anti-vaxxers are bringing information
To 9:19:
Please don’t call me gullible. I did my research. I know that measles was almost eradicated. it’s the vaccines that brought it back through viral shedding!!
Do you have proof that there weren’t severe outbreaks in china recently?
Dear Name Calling, whatever you read at tinfoil hat antivaxer websites is not reliable, designed for uneducated people consumption. How about you take a high school biology course before you run screaming the sky is falling.
Anonymous 10:10 sheeple is right that only Fake News, like CNN, is reliable. Wonder when these ostriches will wake up and bet their heads out of the sand.
Nebech, you are the real gullible sheeple, believing tinfoil hat idiots, lacking any critical thought. Your quack-trusting capacity would make you a perfect candidate to join some Kool Aid cult. You poor lemming.
which medically affailited website denaunced vaccines? nuu? good job you read a non medical website that said vaccines are evil. and now your a expert on vaccines. good job on being guilible!
You can’t reason with shotim that follow the FDA mafia like real dopes, no brains themselves to realise that there are loads of side effects. and where did you all get this magical number that “it protects 95%”, please back up your claims. For some reason nobody with any rational has been able to come forth with documentation to show any of this. The drug companies and the FDA need to control everybody so they bully us to do things for them.
BIG TALKERS F I N D E V I D E N C E NOT J U S T W O R D S ON MATZAV.COM.
so do you bring your children to M.D.’s for checkups? or do you trust some quack with a fake degree pretending to play doctor? so the fda dont know what their talking about the w.h.o. doesnt know what their talking about. and the frum docters are scamming fellow jews and potentially harming or maiming them in what world are you living? so you trust some person without a medical degree to enlighten you on “toxins” and “autism” etc.
do you allow the trashman to invest your portfolio? how about construction man? the are great at building so they can build your portfolio!
Unless someone can prove that a Shul (or 2) in Lakewood has really implemented such a heiligeh command, it must be taken as sheker muchlut. No name of any Shul. No name of any Rav. If they truly believe so strongly, they would proudly publicize their name and location so no unvaccinated rasha should chas vishalom enter their mikdash miat. Elah muy, this is all made up fake news. This is just internet stirred hysteria.
Let’s for one minute leave the discussion of who is correct and who is not, since it’s extremely unlikely that the anti crowd will be swayed any time soon.
They feel that they have an absolute right to daven or to school wherever they want, and refuse to vaccinate their children, because they don’t wish to expose them to vaccines just in order to safeguard someone else’s kids. Fine. However, such rights work both ways. The majority of parents, those who disagree with the anti crowd, have the same absolute right to not want their own children exposed to the unvaccinated ones, citing the same premise of Chayecho Kodmin.
If you don’t wish to be imposed upon, refrain from doing the same upon others, especially since they are the vast majority.
After all is said and done, the truth is there were no measles vaccinations before the 1970s and children had measles like chicken pox and there were hardly any autistic children H”y.
And by the way, Name Calling 8:01, you’re so right. Pro-vaxxers have nothing to base their facts on, so they resort to name calling, like liberals in the US. Whereas anti-vaxxers are proving over and over again about the dangers and risks of vaxxing and bringing information.
Just how would you know that “before the 1970s … there were hardly any autistic children”? That is like saying there were no diabetics before the 1920’s. In both cases what really happened is that modern science began to appreciate the true nature of the problem, give it a name, and find treatment. Thus before around 1970 those who suffered from autism were simply lumped together with mental deficients and lunatics in asylums and left to die (very few marriages, very little reproduction). Diabetics simply died (again, very few marriages or reproduction). As better techniques were developed the condition was diagnosed, treated, and the patients lived to marry and reproduce and pass on the “bad gene” to future generations in increasing numbers. So as those with “bad genes” could now live long enough to reproduce their numbers increased. And some day the genetic causes to these things may be corrected at the genetic level and the condition would no long be inherited.
lol where is your evidence. medical sources only. medical journals, f.d.a., w.h.o.,
???
wheres your Burden of Proof regarding a medical issue that the experts have come to a consensus on. real proof not some random website. a source that is tied to actual practicing doctors in their respective fields!
Hey georgegg, the diagnostic standards changed: mental retardation was not diagnosed as autism; lower side of the spectrum, such as Asberger’s wasn’t diagnosed as autism either. These days they diagnose every hyper 5 year old as autistic. So, no, the autism rates, as defined in 1970, did not go up since 1970.
Can someone solve this riddle?
I think there are now four cases of measles in Lakewood (maybe six, I am not really sure). Since everyone likes to assume those children were not vaccinated, shouldn’t there actually be many more cases given the fact that each child who has measles probably has at least two or three siblings at home who were probably also not vaccinated? The CDC says that measles is so contagious that 90 percent of the people close to that person who are not immune will become infected and they can spread the illness to others four days before the rash comes out and for four days afterwards.
So not only should the siblings have gotten the measles from their infected sibling (and maybe the parents as well), but the child should have spread the measles to their unvaccinated (or possibly some vaccinated, as vaccination is not necessarily fool-proof) classmates or playgroup-mates four days before their rash came out.
Now if we assume that the four or six infected children were vaccinated but somehow still got the measles, they should have spread it to all the unvaccinated (and possible vaccinated) children in their class or playgroup – or perhaps in shul.
So how is it possible that there are only four (or six) cases in the whole town of Lakewood given what the CDC says about how easily measles can spread? And the same question can be asked about Monsey.
The actual answer is that it has to start somewhere. An infection is not noticeable immediately. The “rash” takes two weeks to appear *after* a person was already infected. In other words, there always has to be a “first” case which then spreads to others who themselves will take two more weeks (give or take) before those exposed will themselves show the symptoms and so forth in the chain.
And not everyone is infected “all at once” because measles spreads through the gunk that spews out when a person infected with measles coughs or sneezes (even saliva may do it). So it is a matter of “chance” as to happens to around when an infected person spews gunk from his/her mouth.
We should have separate shuls!
Anti-vaxxers in one shul, and pro vaxxers in another!
Then we could compare development of children and see which ones are healthier!
We can do what the FDA doesn’t want to do- a real experiment!
so the medical experts are unwilling to do “experiment’s”.
when people call in to question the fda and the pharmaceutical industry do they realize that they are also calling into question every frum doctor that gives vaccines. are people saying all the Frum doctors are in on it and on the take?? and purposely want to maime and harm other jews? all for money?
Could someone please post here the name(s) & address(es) of the Shul(s) that have implemented this No-Non-Vaccinated-Person-Allowed policy. Thanks. With this information, I will know which Shul(s) & its (their) location(s) TO KEEP VERY FAR AWAY FROM!!
#1.) I do not wish to be around all those people coming in who just recently had fresh vaccinations and thus, Chas V’Shalom, be injured by the harmful vaccine residues coming off of them (yes, the problem of “shredding” from vaccines that was pointed out in a number of comments here).
#2.) I do not wish to be part of a (supposed) Torah Mosad that is Shtelled Avech – that is established on such vehement prejudice and hatred.
The Dolphins put out a real stinker at home against the Jets. Nu nu, It’s a win nonetheless so will take it.
Enough with the Vaccine debate. No one is going to change their mind over this issue based on bloggers on the internet so both sides should stop forcing the other side to take their side. Do your shita and let the rest of the world live in peace. Live and let live.
so back then they were smart enough to diagnose down syndrome and mental retardation but not autism?
As a teacher, I’ve had many students with autistic siblings. As a student 20-30 years ago, I haven’t had a kid in my school that had an autistic sibling. We never saw these symptoms. They were very rear.
Do you know any 60- 90 year olds who have autism? Or are they all hidden away from us in some mental institute?
JUST WONDERING WHY CAN’T ALL THE VAX CHASIDIM, PRODUCE EVIDENCE, THAT IT IS NEEDED, AND THAT IT HAS OR WILL ELIMINATE ANY OF THESE SICKNESSES, WHY DON’T ALL THE CHACHOMIM WHO ARE IN NEED OF BEING IN CHARGE AND BULLY THE PEOPLE WHO DON’T WANT TO VAX, BRING SOME SOURCE TO THE JUSTIFICATION OF VACCINES. “MIND BOGGLING” THAT IF SOMEBODY DOESN’T WANT TO DO SOMETHING THAT CLEARLY HAS BAD SIDE EFFECTS AND USUALLY HAS BAD DIRECT EFFECTS, THEY ARE CALLED “QUACKS” AND “WACKOS” AND MUCH WORSE.
SHAME ON YOU CONTROL FREAKS AND BULLY. AS IF YOU MEAN LESHEM SHOMAYIM……
Quickly, run and find a Rov who agrees with your shita of not vaccinating, and get a seat in his shul, before shabbos!
It’s a clear halachah even if you don’t like it:
חייך קודמים לחיי חברך “Chayecha Kodmim” – your life takes precedence over his life. You’re not obligated to risk YOUR child’s life with vaccination that have proven to have side effects. Period!
They were proven on mice.. I read the whole portfolio and as far as I know I’m not a mouse and niether are my kids. In addition, the Rav of every shul is koveya the rules and if this is what he says then so be it.
No, they were proven on children. The Vaccine Injury court has awarded more than 4 Billion dollars in compensation for vaccine injuries and acknowledges that its probably only about 1% of actual injuries due to the huge amount of under reporting and difficulty in getting your case through the system. You can also look at the insert in each vaccine packet written by the manufacturer which states the adverse effects that have happened. You can dig your head as far deep into the ground as you can put it, and pretend there are no injuries, but if you choose to actually look into it, you will realize just how many vaccine injuries are occurring in children of all ages and adults as well.
Nobody is telling them that they aren’t allowed to daven. They are fully welcome to start their own minyan, properly called Chayecha Kodmin, and pick a rabbi who is in agreement with their shita.
Hey Marc, you are wrong again: Chayecha Kodmin is talking about when you have a last water bottle in a dessert; it doesn’t give you permission to steal someone else’s water bottle. If a shul or a school doesn’t want you there, then get out as requested, and start your own community with likeminded hippies. Besides, Chayecha Kadmin doesn’t apply here all together, as measles vaccine has been around for decades and has a record of no life threatening nor even serious complications. All these autism claims are a complete scam.
Bad ban let my unvac family go
Okay great. So now we’ll have the Vaccine Police stationed in front of every Shul. Either produce legal documents from your Medical Doctor testifying that you are completely up to date on your vaccines or you will be kicked off the premises. Wonderful. To my Michutanim, sorry I can’t allow you to attend the Oif Ruf. I have no idea if you are vaccinated. You can even carry your papers on Shabbos without an eruv, as the chachomim on the internet paskened that it’s mamesh pikuach nefesh. Pikuach nefesh is docheh Shabbos. Please stay away from your anikel’s bris. Your documents have expired. I don’t trust you. I can’t help but wonder what the next crisis will be.
Anyway, based on all the PC love Rabbi’s who have been preaching on this website about accepting and loving ALL Jews regardless of sins, I feel confident they will let into their Shuls and Yeshivos even those who were not vaccinated.
they shouldn’t
THIS IS A VERY, VERY EXCELLENT REMARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOUR SARCASM IS LITERALLY FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!
YEP, WE WILL NOT ALTER ZEIDE COME TO THE BRIS!!
WE WILL NOT LET HIM COME TO THE BAR MITZVAH!!
HIS “VACCINATION CARD” IS FROM 1977 — WAY OUT OF DATE!!
THIS IS A VERY, VERY EXCELLENT REMARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOUR SARCASM IS LITERALLY FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!
YEP, WE WILL NOT LET ALTER ZEIDE COME TO THE BRIS!!
WE WILL NOT LET HIM COME TO THE BAR MITZVAH!!
HIS “VACCINATION CARD” IS FROM 1977 — WAY OUT OF DATE!!
WE WILL NOT LET ALTER BUBBIE COME TO THE AOF RUF!!
WE WILL NOT LET HER COME TO THE CHASUNA!!
WE WILL NOT LET HER COME TO ANY OF THE SHEVA B’RACHOS!!
HER “VACCINATION CARD” IS FROM 1983 — ALSO WAY OUT OF DATE!!
Regarding your last point: “based on all the PC love Rabbi’s who have been preaching on this website about accepting and loving ALL Jews regardless of sins, I feel confident they will let into their Shuls and Yeshivos even those who were not vaccinated,” of course, I certainly WISH that this is what will happen. However, there are serious doubts.
You see, there are really TWO religions here that people are following:
#1.) Is the religion of “Judaism,” that we who follow it more commonly call it “The Torah.”
#2.) Is the religion of “Modern Medicine.”
So yes, while we in the Frum communities profess to be adherents of the religion of Judaism-Torah, a gigantic portion of our communities, very likely even the vast majority, are also adherents of the religion of Modern Medicine. And those who are adherents of the religion of Modern Medicine are very, very, VERY strongly devout adherents of it; whatever THEY (the doctors of Modern Medicine) “say,” is holy, of holy, of holy, of holies! It is raised aloft and loudly proclaimed and reverently revered infinitely more than any of the words of the Nevi’im in Tanach. No one can ever “dare” to disagree with it; to argue with it is going against the “proven” “proofs” of holy, holy, holy, holy science itself!
But the “Anti-Vaxxers,” they HAVE dared to talk against and defy one of the most sacred of sacred doctrines of Science & Modern Medicine! OOOOO! OOOOO! OOOOO! OOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
So the “rabbis who have been preaching . . . loving all Jews regardless of sins,” oh yea, they will gladly and openly accept and be kind to Jews whose sin is in THE TORAH: Those who do not keep Shabbos, those who do not eat Kosher, those who steal, those who embezzle, those who are M’noafim, even those who do Toeiva, Rachmana Litzlan, these rabbis will have a place in their heart for sympathy for them. But the Anti-Vaxxers, their sin is in the holy, holy, tenants of holy, holy, holy MODERN MEDICINE! They are “Shotim”! They are “Rotzchim!” They are “Rodfim”! They are “selfish”! They are “Irresponsible”! They are THE most despicable of despicable of despicable of people on this earth! No kindness to them! No sympathy to them!
(Note on my above comment)
My sarcastic depiction of Modern Medicine being a “religion” is not my line; I first saw it eloquently presented in one of the books written by a prominent Jewish pediatrician, Robert S. Mendelsohn, MD, Alav HaShalom (1926 – 1988). Dr. Mendelsohn graduated from the medical school at the University of Chicago, was board certified in Pediatrics, had his own pediatric office for many years, but later on treated people of all ages. For many years, he was also a professor at the medical schools of Northwestern University and the University of Illinois. He authored five books plus a newsletter and a newspaper column. (Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._Mendelsohn)
He was an outspoken vehement critic of what occurred in the Modern Medical world, stating that its illness treatments frequently did more harm than the illnesses themselves. He portrayed Modern Medicine as a religion whose god is death and whose ethical doctrine is DIShonesty and where the infant vaccinations are, like the Christian Baptism, the child’s rite of induction into the religion. The particular book I was referring to above is titled: “Confessions of a Medical Heretic,” (pub. 1979 & 1991) which Dr. Mendelsohn wrote in a humorous tone. In it, he greatly elaborated on the religion aspect, and concluded the volume with the blunt advice to everyone to “leave the church of Modern Medicine”!
It’s about time that people are taking action
we have become like the goyim. Oy!
We have an opinion so we bully till everyone agrees with us. Kind of Like the Jewish version of CNN. The fact that Rav Chaim, Rav Malkiel and Rav Shmuel all say a school cannot keep an unvaxed kid out of school, that is not enough. We know better then them.
I agree that kids that aren’t vaccinated should be isolated physically but I do NOT agree with your comment about CNN and bullying… And that Rav chaim etc.. There is bechira in yiddishkeit and as it says Asei Lecha Rav; there are more rabbanim than the ones you mentioned. The ones you mentioned are big but not everyone goes to them with sheilos. Saying what you say is also a form of Bullying.
We have an “opinion”? No. YOU have an opinion. We are following the advice of the doctors of our era. That is Hashem’s expectation of us. After that we apply”Shomer Pesa’im Hashem”, should they be Ch’V wrong. You have an “opinion”, that I am afraid is shared among the fringe of the greater society…and now we all carry the very public shame of your chilul Hahsem.
If you are vaccinated than you “ARE PROTECTED” so why can’t not vaccinated people come, if they don’t care about themselves, it should not bother you, obviously someone has an agenda. Maybe the FDA “Mafia” – yes I said it “Mafia” has all the doctors including ehrliche doctors such as some of the lakewood ones unable to judge this matter correctly…..
Dear mavin, please educate yourself before you embarrass yourself with gibberish: even though measles vaccine immunize most people, due to differences in individual immune systems, no vaccine is guaranteed to work on every person all the time – the effect is achieved by chocking out the disease’s transfer by making a certain critical-mass percentage of the population immunized non carriers. When silly dark-ages antivaxers refuse to vaccinate in mass, the immunized percentage decreases, hence the disease is able to transfer again, and to hit anyone with a weakened immune system, regardless of being vaccinated.
If you are vaccinated than you “ARE PROTECTED” so why can’t not vaccinated people come to shul, if they don’t care about themselves, it should not bother you, obviously someone has an agenda. Maybe the FDA “Mafia” – yes I said it FDA “Mafia” has all the doctors, including ehrliche doctors, such as some of the lakewood ones, unable to judge this matter correctly…..and maybe someone should bring proof that these shots even help. So far almost al the infected people DID take the shots. FACT. Check it out for yourself. Don’t be a parrot and repeat something that even the most heimishe doctor can’t bring anything to back up the need to vaccinate. This writer spent many many days and weeks to find ANY PROOF to allow my children to get a chabura that should be allowed and was unable to find. What chutzpa to clock yiden from davening because of the FDA’s greed.
I’m so sorry but I have read the portfolio and all the proof that vaccines are dangerous; with an open mind. And haven’t found any real proof. It was tested on mice etc… There was nothing in there that convinced me.
Ah that explains the autistic mice we had back in Yeshiva 🙂
Please educate yourself before you embarrass yourself with gibberish: even though measles vaccine immunize most people, due to differences in individual immune systems, no vaccine is guaranteed to work on every person all the time – the effect is achieved by chocking out the disease’s transfer by making a certain critical-mass percentage of the population immunized non carriers. When silly dark-ages antivaxers refuse to vaccinate in mass, the immunized percentage decreases, hence the disease is able to transfer again, and to hit anyone with a weakened immune system, regardless of being vaccinated.
Fact is that all diseases eventually become eradicated naturally. The vaccines create viral shedding and keep the diseases alive. Go do your homework! Read up about viral shedding! This is basic science!!!
“Basic science” picked up from a tinfoil hat antivaxer website?! Pick up a high school biology textbook before you embarrass yourself.
don’t worry they have a b.s. in horse manure. they know better than the doctors with medical degrees that have come to a universal consensus on the issue. after all their homemade degree should trump the doctors right? right? ???
https://www.webmd.com/children/vaccines/news/20150210/measles-vaccine-myths
Of course this a sick joke put out by some nut-case. It doesn’t name a single Shul that has or will implement such a rule. Some ignorant idiot put out the sign as bate hoping some guillibe ill informed board member or rabbi will latch on to it. Total fakery.
I am a member of two Lakewood shuls – one of them sent an email with the exact words in the article to all members signed by the Rov and the other, the Rov spoke Friday night saying the same thing.
Names please?
MAvin LEmaseh. Writing “FACT” in all caps does not make a fact. Can you prove that vaccinated children were the ones infected?
Imperfect Immunity
If vaccination does not confer solid immunity against infection to all recipients, the threshold level of vaccination required to protect a population increases. If vaccination protects only a proportion E among those vaccinated (E standing for effectiveness against infection transmission, in the field), then the critical vaccination coverage level should be Vc=(1− 1/R0)/E. We can see from this that if E is <(1− 1/R0) it would be impossible to eliminate an infection even by vaccinating the whole population. Similarly, waning vaccine-induced immunity demands higher levels of coverage or regular booster vaccination.
In Simple English: The vaccine does not provide 100% immunity. Therefore for it to work effectively the community needs to maintain ~95% or greater levels of vaccination. So yes if you don't vaccinate please stay away from me and my kids. I love you. But just in case I/my kids are one of those for whom the vaccine did not work please, please, pretty please with a cherry on top… stay away from us.
agreed…
OK. So if this is the case, why get the vaccine at all? If it is not 100% effective or 95% effective why take the risk? Also, children who have not been vaccinated should be more worried about coming to close to children who have been vaccinated, because vaccinated children are at risk of not only getting the disease but infecting others.
do you brush your teeth? or use antibiotic cream on wounds like scrapes or cuts? or wear a helmet when riding a bike?
in china despite a measles vaccination rate of 99% since 2010 and 98% since 1990, there were 38,159 measles cases in 2010. in 2014 that number rose to 52,628.
There is no such a thing as herd immunity in regard to vaccines.
Herd immunity can only come from natural infections which will make the person immune for life.
Dear 8:30, your “facts” are made up lies, which you gullibly picked up at some idiotic antivaxer site. Here is a solid unrefutable fact: measles was practically eradicated in the US for decades until enough fools signed up on the dark-ages anti vaccine crusade.
man who taught all the antivaxers how to copy and paste. man they need to put a limit on it seeing how much the antivax crowd abuses copy and paste!
Get your vaccine shot = live forever and enter any carnival or Shul you please.
Don’t get vaccinated = life of misery and dead by the age of 22. No carnivals and no Shuls.
This has to be a joke. If the vaccine is soooo safe why are pro-vaxx people concerned about contracting the disease from anti-vaxxers? The fact that shuls would stoop so low (if this is true) to deny Yidden their right to daven should make many people pause. For sure, this approach is not Jewish and certainly not Ahavas Yisroel.
Just look at the pictures of the child with measles! How could any parent be opposed! Even if it is not 100% effective, say only 90%, how can you not give your child the best!It behooves me! Anti-Maven, you stated the case masterfully! I think that any parent who opts out for their children be brought up on charges of abuse!
theproblem is that many parents do not want to submit their healthy kid to a possible adverse side effect of the vaccine.
so talk to your certified doctor about your worries! not some random person on any website with no evidence to back it up!
do you trust every kashrus for meat? and when your unsure do you walk up to a goy and ask him what he recommends? or do you ask a Rabbi?
There’s no rational argument that will sway these anti-vaxers. You can’t reason with shotim, that’s why they are potur from all mitzvos. Unfortunately they will only be swayed when one of their own friends or relatives gets seriously ill. And unfortunately now we have lethal shotim running around among us.
chas veshalom, many of the antivaxers had their own friends, relatives and children who got seriously ill from the vaccine, and it swayed them to stop giving their kids vaccines.
I’m not from Lakewood but it is disturbing to read such language against fellow Yidden. In my “out of town” community we value each Jew enough that we can’t afford to exclude people from our minyanim for whatever reason. This seems to be quite ridiculous… Maybe when you have a large tzibbur together you forget some basics…
To “Mitz’ta’air”: You have made a very excellent observation that, B’Ezras Hashem, I would like to elaborate on.
I AM LITERALLY SEVERELY PAINED AND HORRIFICALLY HORRIFIED AT THE NEARLY ENDLESS REMARKS HERE OF THE MOST EXCEEDINGLY OF EXCEEDINGLY EXTREME VILE HATRED AND VEHEMENT DEFAMATION OF PEOPLE WHO DECLINE VACCINATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just the term “Anti-Vaxxers” is itself already quite derogatory, and then there are the numerous despicable accusations and sick titles — of total outright lies and fabrications — being heavily heaped upon them.
On the contrary, the people who do not vaccinate are extremely RESPONSIBLE people! They are absolutely not going to allow themselves and their children to be injected with poison concoctions that are well known to cause horrific harm — as numerous other comments posted here have superbly pointed out.
I would like to know if you people who are spewing all this vile upon — as you call them — those “awful” “Anti-Vaxxers,” have said EVEN ONE TENTH as much vehemence and hatred upon that sludge of scum, Robert Bowers, Yimach Shemo V’Zichro, who massacred eleven Jews last week in Pittsburgh, or upon all Nazi SS officers and soldiers, Yimach Shemam V’Zichram, who, of course, are the real Rodfim and Rotzchim!!
While the mainstream media is busy making a mockery of itself with runaway hysteria “witch hunt” hate speech against parents who choose not to poison their children with toxic vaccines, the real story on the measles outbreak remains entirely unreported in any mainstream media outlet.
What story is that? The true story about how Big Pharma’s own vaccine scientists blew the whistle on MMR vaccine research fraud taking place over a decade ago, warning that the vaccine’s approval by the FDA was based on “falsified results” and that the fraudulent MMR vaccine was the “primary cause” of a measles outbreak in 2006, as they state in their own words (see below).
The senior management of the world’s top vaccine producer was actively engaged in the fraud, according to the whistleblowers, even going so far as to test the vaccine against contrived “laboratory” strains of infectious viruses rather than testing them against strains circulating in the real world. This created an MMR vaccine with results that could be faked to appear effective while actually conferring almost no real-world protection at all, thereby ensuring an eventual outbreak that the media would seize upon to call for more vaccines.
When these pro-vaccine scientists attempted to sound the alarm on the MMR vaccine research fraud they not only witnessed but actually took part in carrying out, they were threatened with being arrested and sent to prison, according to their own testimony.
Read more here:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/evidence-emerges-that-measles-outbreaks-are-deliberately-encouraged-by-big-pharma-to-ignite-vaccine-hysteria/5429853
https://kellybroganmd.com/cdc-youre-fired-autism-coverup-exposed/
Dear Chicken Little, the vaccines are not toxic, the big pharma is not making any money on vaccines, and you shouldn’t treat your mental disorder by banging your head against a wall.
Once again! the pro- vaxxers are resorting to name calling.
The anti-vaxxers are bringing information
To 9:19:
Please don’t call me gullible. I did my research. I know that measles was almost eradicated. it’s the vaccines that brought it back through viral shedding!!
Do you have proof that there weren’t severe outbreaks in china recently?
Dear Name Calling, whatever you read at tinfoil hat antivaxer websites is not reliable, designed for uneducated people consumption. How about you take a high school biology course before you run screaming the sky is falling.
Anonymous 10:10 sheeple is right that only Fake News, like CNN, is reliable. Wonder when these ostriches will wake up and bet their heads out of the sand.
Nebech, you are the real gullible sheeple, believing tinfoil hat idiots, lacking any critical thought. Your quack-trusting capacity would make you a perfect candidate to join some Kool Aid cult. You poor lemming.
which medically affailited website denaunced vaccines? nuu? good job you read a non medical website that said vaccines are evil. and now your a expert on vaccines. good job on being guilible!
You can’t reason with shotim that follow the FDA mafia like real dopes, no brains themselves to realise that there are loads of side effects. and where did you all get this magical number that “it protects 95%”, please back up your claims. For some reason nobody with any rational has been able to come forth with documentation to show any of this. The drug companies and the FDA need to control everybody so they bully us to do things for them.
BIG TALKERS F I N D E V I D E N C E NOT J U S T W O R D S ON MATZAV.COM.
so do you bring your children to M.D.’s for checkups? or do you trust some quack with a fake degree pretending to play doctor? so the fda dont know what their talking about the w.h.o. doesnt know what their talking about. and the frum docters are scamming fellow jews and potentially harming or maiming them in what world are you living? so you trust some person without a medical degree to enlighten you on “toxins” and “autism” etc.
do you allow the trashman to invest your portfolio? how about construction man? the are great at building so they can build your portfolio!
Unless someone can prove that a Shul (or 2) in Lakewood has really implemented such a heiligeh command, it must be taken as sheker muchlut. No name of any Shul. No name of any Rav. If they truly believe so strongly, they would proudly publicize their name and location so no unvaccinated rasha should chas vishalom enter their mikdash miat. Elah muy, this is all made up fake news. This is just internet stirred hysteria.
Let’s for one minute leave the discussion of who is correct and who is not, since it’s extremely unlikely that the anti crowd will be swayed any time soon.
They feel that they have an absolute right to daven or to school wherever they want, and refuse to vaccinate their children, because they don’t wish to expose them to vaccines just in order to safeguard someone else’s kids. Fine. However, such rights work both ways. The majority of parents, those who disagree with the anti crowd, have the same absolute right to not want their own children exposed to the unvaccinated ones, citing the same premise of Chayecho Kodmin.
If you don’t wish to be imposed upon, refrain from doing the same upon others, especially since they are the vast majority.
After all is said and done, the truth is there were no measles vaccinations before the 1970s and children had measles like chicken pox and there were hardly any autistic children H”y.
And by the way, Name Calling 8:01, you’re so right. Pro-vaxxers have nothing to base their facts on, so they resort to name calling, like liberals in the US. Whereas anti-vaxxers are proving over and over again about the dangers and risks of vaxxing and bringing information.
Just how would you know that “before the 1970s … there were hardly any autistic children”? That is like saying there were no diabetics before the 1920’s. In both cases what really happened is that modern science began to appreciate the true nature of the problem, give it a name, and find treatment. Thus before around 1970 those who suffered from autism were simply lumped together with mental deficients and lunatics in asylums and left to die (very few marriages, very little reproduction). Diabetics simply died (again, very few marriages or reproduction). As better techniques were developed the condition was diagnosed, treated, and the patients lived to marry and reproduce and pass on the “bad gene” to future generations in increasing numbers. So as those with “bad genes” could now live long enough to reproduce their numbers increased. And some day the genetic causes to these things may be corrected at the genetic level and the condition would no long be inherited.
lol where is your evidence. medical sources only. medical journals, f.d.a., w.h.o.,
???
wheres your Burden of Proof regarding a medical issue that the experts have come to a consensus on. real proof not some random website. a source that is tied to actual practicing doctors in their respective fields!
Hey georgegg, the diagnostic standards changed: mental retardation was not diagnosed as autism; lower side of the spectrum, such as Asberger’s wasn’t diagnosed as autism either. These days they diagnose every hyper 5 year old as autistic. So, no, the autism rates, as defined in 1970, did not go up since 1970.
Can someone solve this riddle?
I think there are now four cases of measles in Lakewood (maybe six, I am not really sure). Since everyone likes to assume those children were not vaccinated, shouldn’t there actually be many more cases given the fact that each child who has measles probably has at least two or three siblings at home who were probably also not vaccinated? The CDC says that measles is so contagious that 90 percent of the people close to that person who are not immune will become infected and they can spread the illness to others four days before the rash comes out and for four days afterwards.
So not only should the siblings have gotten the measles from their infected sibling (and maybe the parents as well), but the child should have spread the measles to their unvaccinated (or possibly some vaccinated, as vaccination is not necessarily fool-proof) classmates or playgroup-mates four days before their rash came out.
Now if we assume that the four or six infected children were vaccinated but somehow still got the measles, they should have spread it to all the unvaccinated (and possible vaccinated) children in their class or playgroup – or perhaps in shul.
So how is it possible that there are only four (or six) cases in the whole town of Lakewood given what the CDC says about how easily measles can spread? And the same question can be asked about Monsey.
Am I missing something here?
The actual answer is that it has to start somewhere. An infection is not noticeable immediately. The “rash” takes two weeks to appear *after* a person was already infected. In other words, there always has to be a “first” case which then spreads to others who themselves will take two more weeks (give or take) before those exposed will themselves show the symptoms and so forth in the chain.
And not everyone is infected “all at once” because measles spreads through the gunk that spews out when a person infected with measles coughs or sneezes (even saliva may do it). So it is a matter of “chance” as to happens to around when an infected person spews gunk from his/her mouth.
We should have separate shuls!
Anti-vaxxers in one shul, and pro vaxxers in another!
Then we could compare development of children and see which ones are healthier!
We can do what the FDA doesn’t want to do- a real experiment!
so the medical experts are unwilling to do “experiment’s”.
when people call in to question the fda and the pharmaceutical industry do they realize that they are also calling into question every frum doctor that gives vaccines. are people saying all the Frum doctors are in on it and on the take?? and purposely want to maime and harm other jews? all for money?
Why is this sign necessary ?
It isn’t Yom kippur when we allow avaryanim t daven with us.
Why would these avaryanim ever be allowed in?
Could someone please post here the name(s) & address(es) of the Shul(s) that have implemented this No-Non-Vaccinated-Person-Allowed policy. Thanks. With this information, I will know which Shul(s) & its (their) location(s) TO KEEP VERY FAR AWAY FROM!!
#1.) I do not wish to be around all those people coming in who just recently had fresh vaccinations and thus, Chas V’Shalom, be injured by the harmful vaccine residues coming off of them (yes, the problem of “shredding” from vaccines that was pointed out in a number of comments here).
#2.) I do not wish to be part of a (supposed) Torah Mosad that is Shtelled Avech – that is established on such vehement prejudice and hatred.
https://www.webmd.com/children/vaccines/news/20150210/measles-vaccine-myths
There was always mental retardation and down syndrome. there was no autism. Do you know any 70 years olds who are autistic?
The Dolphins put out a real stinker at home against the Jets. Nu nu, It’s a win nonetheless so will take it.
Enough with the Vaccine debate. No one is going to change their mind over this issue based on bloggers on the internet so both sides should stop forcing the other side to take their side. Do your shita and let the rest of the world live in peace. Live and let live.
so back then they were smart enough to diagnose down syndrome and mental retardation but not autism?
As a teacher, I’ve had many students with autistic siblings. As a student 20-30 years ago, I haven’t had a kid in my school that had an autistic sibling. We never saw these symptoms. They were very rear.
Do you know any 60- 90 year olds who have autism? Or are they all hidden away from us in some mental institute?
JUST WONDERING WHY CAN’T ALL THE VAX CHASIDIM, PRODUCE EVIDENCE, THAT IT IS NEEDED, AND THAT IT HAS OR WILL ELIMINATE ANY OF THESE SICKNESSES, WHY DON’T ALL THE CHACHOMIM WHO ARE IN NEED OF BEING IN CHARGE AND BULLY THE PEOPLE WHO DON’T WANT TO VAX, BRING SOME SOURCE TO THE JUSTIFICATION OF VACCINES. “MIND BOGGLING” THAT IF SOMEBODY DOESN’T WANT TO DO SOMETHING THAT CLEARLY HAS BAD SIDE EFFECTS AND USUALLY HAS BAD DIRECT EFFECTS, THEY ARE CALLED “QUACKS” AND “WACKOS” AND MUCH WORSE.
SHAME ON YOU CONTROL FREAKS AND BULLY. AS IF YOU MEAN LESHEM SHOMAYIM……