Matzav Shmooze: I’m An “Anti Vaxxer” – Here’s My Question To YOU

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Dear Matzav Shmooze,

I am what people have been calling an “anti vaxxer.” Ever since the outbreak of measles my family has been subjected to name calling, ostracization and threats. It has been very hard ordeal for us but it is a sacrifice we are willing to make to protect our family from the dangerous toxins forced on us by the government and social pressure.

I understand that most of the readers on this site have a different opinion than I do on this issue. I’ve read through all the comments and I’ve seen both sides and their arguments. For the most part both sides have their answers and rely on their doctors and Rabbonim to decide what’s right for them.

But here is the one question that has yet to be addressed by the pro vaxxer side. With all the name calling and other types of bashing screaming about how doctors know what’s best, we’ve forgotten a deeper truth:

Since when do Torah Jews blindly follow science?

Every Jew I speak to, whether they vaccinate or not, knows that science is not always a field that can be trusted. Scientists are the ones who made up this fairy tale called evolution. These scientists would have you believe that human beings descend from monkeys! These same scientists will also tell you that the world is millions of years old when the Torah clearly contradicts it!

Another big lie that scientists tell us is how the global warming is going to destroy the world.

Everyone laughs at these so called scientific “discoveries” because we know they are ridiculous and go kneged hatorah. So why all of a sudden do we all believe the scientists and doctors when they tell us that vaccines are safe? Given their track record, this newfound faith in doctors and science is inconsistent. Shouldn’t someone who chooses to distrust the scienctific field get the benefit of the doubt that they might actually be right?

I  believe that this measles outbreak is a call from Hashem for us to do teshuva and turn back to trusting only in Him. Maybe the real difference between the pro vaxxers and the anti vaxxers is that some Jews have become too self assured and declared kochi v’otzem yadi instead of placing their trust in the true Rofeh Cholim.

Your Neighbor The Anti Vaxxer

134 COMMENTS

  1. Dear antivaxxers, you underlying problem is that you base your opinion on a “belief”. Not Yidishkeit’s Emunah, but a senseless and fanatical christian type belief. For you, it’s a question whether to believe doctors or quacks, and you just happen to believe quacks. Normal people base their opinions on knowledge as opposed to christian type beliefs. Why don’t you antivaxxers get yourself educated in basic biology, and make your conclusions based on science as opposed to your christian type beliefs.

  2. There are diseases that were eradicated with vaccine. I get why you shouldn’t trust the government in this. My sons got a very strong case of mumps even though they were vaccinated.
    Nevertheless, we have to weigh the risks versus the benefits. History shows that the benefits of vaccines far outweigh the risks for mmr. For the flu….. well, that’s another story.
    I guess we have to follow our Rav.

    • do you know which vaccine currently saves the most lives in the united states (and other developed countries)?
      It is the flu vaccine. despite the fact that the flu vaccine does not prevent the flu to all of the people who are vaccinated, it does reduce the overall number of people who get the disease as well as it significantly reduces the severe complications from the flu. I was working in an Emergency department last winter when we had a terrible flu season. I saw young, previously healthy people intubated and sedated (or in an induced coma) due to the flu. 200 children died from the flu last winter. more than 80 percent of those children were not vaccinated.

    • i’ve heard this silly argument. who defines what a “doctor” is? If the Rambam was alive today, he would NOT be called a Rambam become he was not ordained by medical schools. For thousands of years, there were doctors who healed through natural means and not synthetic drugs. They are no less a doctor, than the modern day “doctor”s.

      • Brilliant remark. For hundreds of years the barbers were the ones who practiced medicine – presumably because they had razors.
        Someone who has spent years learning about the human body and medicine is qualified to offer a medical opinion. No one else.

      • Yes the rambam did receive medical training actually the rambam pretended to be a mute so that the dr who taught him would teach him because that dr didn’t want to share his secrets in medicine

      • The rambam actually did study medicine under another dr before he became a dr not only that but it was a non Jewish dr who didn’t want to teach anyone because he was afraid that they would pass on the knowledge so the rambam pretended to be a mute

  3. And the answer to your profound question is very simple. Centuries ago the life span of an average person was 30 to 40 years and with no medical science people dropped dead as soon as they contracted an illness. With the advancement of medicine peoples life span has quadrupled. So yes, in this area we can trust science and in other areas not. It’s a simple distinction.

  4. “Global warming” is not science, biology is. Biology has been proven right through everyday miracles of contemporary medicine, while “Al Gore’s the polar bears are going to drown in 10 years” has been proven factually wrong, as polar bears are still all right. In fact, “global warming” proponents use the same methods as antivaxxers: lie, when refuted jump to another lie.

  5. Hey anti Vaxer, next time you or your family member gets sick, would you go to a doctor and hospital to get treated or will you just do teshuva and daven? You cant have it both ways.

    • Hey anon at 10:33. I got the measles and I didn’t need to go to the doctor. You treat it like a cold. Drink plenty of fluids, get plenty of rest, and take Tylenol for fever. That’s it. It took me about two weeks to get better. Now I have natural immunity, BH.

  6. So..do you shun antibiotics? What about seat belts? There are cases where the seat belt has actually caused more harm. You ask why we blindly follow science..we don’t, there is empirical evidence that vaccines do more good than harm. There is also evidence that the basis against vaccines has been proved fraudulent and has even been retracted by the original author who admitted he fudged it. So, why do you continue to blindly follow a hoax?

  7. Hey, AntiVaxxer, do you wear glasses? Just because they’re mentioned in Hilchos Shabbos as being permitted on Shabbos, based on your logic how can one wear them at all? After all, that means using medical knowledge instead of having “rel bitachon”?

    • For shmiras einayim, ein huchi nami. Those that are righteous take their glasses off when they walk outside. Especially in todays day and age, it’s giferlach. 2 of my Rebbeim used to fearsach azo. I tried it for a while but then when someone would greet me from a distance or across the street, I couldn’t make out who it was and it was a little embarrassing. I know it’s not an excuse. We should only be embarrassed in front of the rebono shel olam. Maybe I’ll try again.

      • “Trying to improve” has already answered that question. With your logic wearing glasses is a complete danger to the soul, which is even worse than a danger to the body.

      • Do vaccines cause autism? Based on what reliable study. I think it’s a very good comparison furthermore wearing glasses at times can increase the rate at which your eyesight deteriorates

  8. why is there a brocha שנתן מכחמתו לבשר ןדם if we are not supposed to give credit to doctors for their life saving discoveries?

    • Great that we hail Drs for their life saving discovery that it is healthy for pregnant women to smoke, it will relax them!
      Oh, you don’t agree with that bit of medical advice that was once commonly offered by Drs?
      Did you know Drs initially thought washing hands was ridiculous and would not save women in labor?
      Did you know Drs used to prescribe medications that actually caused terrible birth defects to pregnant women, telling the women it was safe?
      What makes you so sure that vaccinating a pregnant woman (for example Tdap or flu) is safe today? Did you know that Drs recommend this even though the vaccines have never been tested on pregnant women???!!!
      Science sometimes discovers that it was wrong. The anti vaxxers that you are making fun of don’t just “believe” – they have spent countless hours researching and are not satisfied that the science is settled. Have you invested in that kind of research?

  9. You’re question is so juvenile. The Torah says to trust the Dr. period, you go to a dr for all your health issue. You listen to the dr.
    Don’t be an uber chuchim. Your putting people at risk.
    I know you want listen to any argument or facts.

    • Would you say the same about global warming? 97 % of scientists who study the atmosphere and the climate say that by 2030 the Earth will reach a dangerous point of no return due to global warming ? Do you believe that? If not, why can’t I believe the dozens of studies that show vaccines are dangerous? Just because 90% of scientists say otherwise? What’s the difference?

      • Because I took science in University and I know the difference between something that is testable (like actually giving a drug in controlled trials and seeing what happens) to theory that is completely untestable in the same way (we don’t have spare planets around to run controlled trials).

        • Which is why it would be GREAT if some controlled studies would be done BEFORE the vaccine is added to the schedule rather than after.
          Most haven’t even been tested with a double blind placebo. (the placebo is usually a *different* vaccine and they are observed for only a few days afterwards!)
          Our kids are the guinea pigs.
          Since you’ve studied science in University you also know that correlation does not equal causation but only a fool (or someone bought) will dismiss fatalities and illnesses (and yes autism) that happen immediately after a vaccine as being not “causative”!
          You can’t dismiss the reality that has happened before our eyes.
          The spike in autism, neurological disorders, autoimmune desease, allergies, the list goes on.
          Autism vaccine link has been proven over and over again (even if you’d like to say that Wakefield paper was fraudulent)
          Use your handy browser, type in nvic.org
          You’ll find out lots of accurate impartial and scientific info about all vaccines and their ingredients and effects.

        • The controlled safety trials for many vaccines do not use a saline placebo; they use another vaccine, such as the DPT, which was later discontinued due to its high incidince of serious adverse effects. Very comforting thought.

    • The Torah says “Uvacharta Bachayim”, and Use your Brain that God gave you.
      If you read some of the comments here with an OPEN MIND you will know more then most Doctors about vaccines. Injecting your kids with the worst toxins is not sensible or natural, and there is only 1 study on 1 vaccine with 1 ingredient. NO real safety studies on all the other well knows toxins. Don’t let your kids be a guinea pig. Autisim is not 1 in 36 in the USA and 50% of kids are allergic, ADD, conical or mental illness.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rp9YNMNlxQ&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

  10. You’re question is so juvenile. The Torah says to trust the Dr. period, you go to a dr for all your health issue. You listen to the dr.
    Don’t be an uber chuchim. Your putting people at risk.
    I know you wont listen to any argument or facts.

    • “The Torah says to trust the Dr. period” Where?
      “Your putting people at risk.” So your suggestion is putting your child at risk in order your child not contact measles.
      “argument or facts” since when do sheeple bring logical arguments?

    • Could you explain how exactly anti-vaxxers who are afraid of vaccination risks are out of touch? I would assume if anyone is out of touch it’s those who follow the doctor blindly.

  11. Chazal have told us that When it comes to medical issues we follow the norm. We also follow the Expert doctors.
    Your problem is you don’t believe that any of the doctors are experts you believe that you know better from 1or2 Kwax that’s not the way we learned from our previous generations.

    • You can be sure that had the Rambam been alive today he would be very against these risky vaccinations which although they cover the child for measles they can cause tremendous damage, esp neurological. Every child who’s not affected by vaccinations need to bentch gomel.

      • Based on what study are you claiming that vaccines are so dangerous I have yet to come across such a study

        Ps I don’t do all the vaccines such as hepatitis b because hepatitis b is an STD that I don’t think there is a risk in the frum circles

  12. And now that you posted your fascinating piece of amateur literary endeavor, kindly climb back under your rock, and continue to live in the 17th century, when there were no vaccines, and illnesses were treated with bloodletting and various salves. As to the efficacy of those “remedies”, visit a cemetery of your choice, and witness the ages of people buried therein. Then, repeat your question.

    • If you believe every new thing that science comes up with why don’t you believe in evolution? Or global warming? According to you every Torah Jew is stuck in the 17th century

      • I already pointed out previously on the difference between something testable in trials (like a drug) or plain untestable theory like evolution or global warming. But I will add more. “Evolution” leads to no particular scientific course of action what-so-ever. Does science say that because humans allegedly came from monkeys THEREFORE every human must climb trees by their tails – but – if humans had come from dogs it WOULD have meant that every human must now eat supper on all fours from a bowel on the floor? So believe or don’t believe in evolution – or even any different evolution you want – there is no ACTUAL change in what science asks you to do because of it. (Global warming is nearly in the same boat – the way it was presented by Al Gore back when, it is now already too late to do anything worthwhile anyway.)

    • that is a great question, unfortunately, most vaccinations have been proven to be most effective in the form of an injection and the alternative methods have not been as good.
      you can however get a dose of an antianxiety medication prior to the vaccines in order to make it less difficult for you. call your doctor and discuss it with them

      • I just read a news flash that antianxiety medication is Not recommended prior to surgery. The patient has longer recovery times,etc. I don’t know if this also holds true for prior to a vaccine.

  13. Dear Writer: You were talking to the 4 walls. Don’t expect anyone to stick up for you with loads of medical proofs and evidence here, as it would not be allowed to go through. A waste of time to put some logic into these sheeple who follow their doctor blindly without questioning.

  14. Anti vaxxer: You didn’t explain why you are an anti vaxxer… Is it because you believe that Torah Jews don’t blindly follow science? If yes, do you take antibiotics or other scientific discoveries? If you do, what is the difference? If your reason is because you are afraid of the possiblity that vaccines cause autism, then why didn’t you say that?

  15. I don’t want to debate if one should place their trust solely on Hashem or do their due hishtadlus because your mind is made up. However, you may not realize that you’re imposing your beliefs on people who are unable to have vaccines such as a newborn baby until the age of one or ppl who’s immune system is not strong. If you were to stay in your house the entire day you have a right to your beliefs. However should you be wrong, you risk an entire population of people who are not able to be immune and for that you are wrong

    • oh really? Are you the new doctor? The heilig hospitals are giving HEpatitis B vacccines to 12 hour old infants! Many other vaccines are given to children less than a year old. So please inform us where you are getting your information from.

  16. Please go through the Mishna Berura High is Yom Kippur when the Shulchan Aruch discusses when one can (must) break their fast by Dr.’s orders. This applies to a non Jewish / non frum dr. as well, as long as they’re not trying to trick someone into breaking Yom Kippur. The Torah tells us to follow Dr’s. Thats the halacha. In the olden days, yes, youd be mechyav to blood let. Nowadays, you are mechyav to vaccinate. If real Dr.s come with a real consensus that vaccinating is harmful, you would not vaccinate. Its really not that difficult to comprehend. True bitachon and emunah is following Hashem even if we think otherwise. Hashem told us to vaccinate. End of story.

    • “Real doctors” could not heal my son or sister in law (and countless other) real diseases. But the “fake doctors” could. So, who is the real doctor?

    • End of story is that intelligent people go for a second opinion on major life issues which vaccinations definitely are. And if the 2nd opinion are hidden from mainstream media and can only be found on true medical sites, that’s where you go.

    • “Hashem told us to vaccinate,” hmm…. I must’ve missed it. Which of the 613 mitzvos is vaccination?
      “True bitachon and emunah is following Hashem even if we think otherwise.” You’re mixing up some yotzross. Heeding what Hashem says has nothing to do with emunah and bitachon. You need some lectures on this topic.

  17. dear writer
    you sound very sincere. all due respect [especially if you are a baal/as teshuva] to you! however ive read your post a few times, and it seems, that theres more behind your sincere question than your few words. do you have someone whom you respect, that you can disscuss your hashkafa issues with? its probably worthwhile much more . the answers are readily available and not complicated. wishing you much hatslacha and healthy children physically and spiritually.

  18. Hashem is surely crying at the baseless Sinas Chinum, hatred and name calling this topic has caused. The Soton has won big time and is sitting on a lounge chair sipping a glass of wine as he watches his people plunging into the depths of Gehinom.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion. EVEN if their opinion is wrong, they are entitled to it. If you feel they are wrong, speak to them Bnachas and maybe you will be able to have an intelligent conversation. These are the Parshios in Sefer Beraishis where we see how Yaakov Avenu spoke, how Eliezer Eved Avrohom spoke. First use terms of Achai Verayei, first befriend and then speak. Where in the world did this name calling and sarcasm and negativity come from? Hashem Yerachem.

    It is time for the moderators to no longer publish any nasty comments.

  19. The torah tells us to follow the majority. If you were to show me a scientific research that showed that vaccines dont help then we would still have to follow majority. But you didn’t mention even a single piece of evidence. Your only proof is that our proof isnt to be trusted because torah doesn’t mention a word about vaccines.
    Do you know of a better way to fight MMR diseases? So far the vaccine has helped over 95% of people who got the shots.
    Until you find a better solution we are stuck choosing whatever works.
    Even if it may cause some people to get new problems it’s a very small percent.
    And by you not getting the vaccine you are putting all the other kids in danger. So we think you may be a rodef.
    You cant say Sheva Al Tase in the face of so much evidence and because other peoples lives are at stake. So either move out to the forrest or be part of the society and help all of us be safe the only way we currently know how.

  20. I love all of these meshugoyim because they are my fellow yidden. But they fall into the category of shower pesaim Hashem. I wish that none of them are ever stricken with cancer,because I can’t imagine they would pour the toxins called chemo into their body. In fact many of such people die a year because they refuse to use traditional anti-cancer regimens. Yes we all know that chemo is poisonous, and wrecks havoc on the body. But cancer is deathly!!!!! No we don’t think that vaccines are healthy and as harmless as chewing on celery. But measels can be deathly. and if anyone is considering not giving the polio vaccine I can give you the number of my cousin, who is severely disabled since getting polio as a child.

  21. I agree…
    The question is really, why should I do something possibly dangerous to my child so that it may possibly save him and many others. Am I allowed to take such a risk? Even if one possibility is more likely than another?

    On the other hand…
    The problem with this logic is that who’s blood is redder?
    When it comes to your own life you can choose whatever you want but when it comes time to endangering others if it’s just a small chance of engagement then you are not allowed to take such a chance.
    See the discussion in Talmud – Yoma 82b.

  22. Kudos to Matzav!

    I was waiting for a website, any website, to allow a letter like this to be posted. And, as a disclaimer, I vaccinate my children.

    Chazal do tell us that we learn from V’rapoh yerapeh that “mikan nitnah reshus l’rofeh l’rapos”. However, according to most earlier commentaries, and what seems from many letters from Reb Chaim shlit”a, this is only a heter for an actual choleh to go to a doctor to get healed. This is not a heter for any type of preventitive medicine at all. That is why Reb Chaim is not a fan of testing for machalos, as he writes “habedikos mayviyin es hamachalos”.

    The Gra takes it so far to say that it is only a heter for the doctor to heal. But not for the choleh to go to a doctor. The choleh is supposed to turn to bitachon, as many gemoros teach us sickness is a result of sin, not a result of nature. It is the sin that needs to be worked on, not the disease. Understandabely, most of us are not on the level of the Gre’s bitachoin where we should be.

    But vaccines has nothing to do woth V’rapoh yerapeh.

    This is a big shailah in bitachon, which is not for the doctors to decide. This is a shailah for the big gedolim, which we have on both sides of this issue. (Even lthogh the anti-vaxine gedolim are not being publicized in our media, there are many of them)

    The bottom line is: We cannot outsmart G-d. If He wants to bring on an epidemic, He will. Measels is actually not usually a matter of life-or-death in most cases. There are much worse machalos out there. When the flu was spreading, and we knew there was no vaccine that worked, we all knew to turn to tefilah. Now we are shifting our bitachon to rely people instead of the Ribono Shel Oilam. I would advise all serious readers to learn Reb Chaim’s sefer Taamah D’Kra in the begining of Parshas Chayei Sara for a little dose of where our bitachon should be.

    It would be more effective for everyone to learn through Shar Habitochon than to get vaccinated. But it is far easier to vaccinate than it is to work on Emunah and Bitachon.

    • If you really think all those sources are reasons not to vaccinate why did you vaccinate your own kids? Put your money where your mouth is

      • I do not need to publish any of my personal reasons. I am just presenting the other side to the story.

        And BTW, one of the big Gedolim Zekainim in America STILL holds one should not vax, even with the curreent outbreak. He was just asked. But then again, one is only a Gadol, and his opinion only counts, when his opinion fits a certain agenda!

        I just don’t get this new atmosphere, with the Vaxxing, with the Pitsburgh story. Why the attacks?!? Different Gedolim had different opinions since Matan Torah. Shamai had no personal ffelings against, and did not attack Hillel, even though they argued often. Nowadays, if someone ch”v holds an opinion which doesn’t conform with certain agendas, they get personally attacked no matter how big they are.

        I believe we woull all stay healthier if when we respect our fellow Yidden who are following their Gedolim. Everyone is entitled to folllow the opinion of their Rebbi/Rov. And if you vax your own children, even according to to the strong Vaxxers, they will be safe and not succeptable to the desease.

        AND, btw, the government who is prohibitimg the non-vaxxers from going to school, is not because of the danger to the Vaccinated children. They will be fine. It is because they are afraid these non-vaccinated children might get sick.

        As long as you vaccinate your kids, you are safe l’fi all dayos. What’s the reason for the attache?!? Because you are so concerned for everyone else? Then maybe we should attack all the smokers. That is much more dangerous than not vaxxing, and is even more dangerous than getting the measels itself!

    • “The Gra takes it so far to say that …’

      Where is that documented? The only source I know is a story – not a psak or any such thing – about something he allegedly said to his brother when his brother was sick.

      “as many gemoros teach us sickness is a result of sin”

      Actually, it is death that the Gemara talks about. So anyone without sin can be bitten by a poisonous animal and it is the animal that dies from it, not the person. SO the Talmud tells us in actual incidents it relates. So I would propose if the poisonous snake dies when biting the person, then I will give in on the vaccination issue as relating for that particular person alone. Otherwise, keep the poison snake of the measles virus away with a proper vaccine.

      The Chumash talks about national condition being dependent on the national spiritual level (“sin” or lack thereof).

  23. I hope it doesn’t happen, but if your kids contract measles or whooping cough or polio etc you would be terribly sorry! Thats for sure!

  24. There are centers all around the world who are successfully curing cancer patients. One of them is Hippocrates in Florida. There are many doctors who are helping people reverse cancer through diet and lifestyle by starving the unhealthy cells through proper nutrition. Dr. Joel Fuhrman MD is one of them. Please don’t assume there is only one way. Like vaccines, this is also being covered up and one of these health centers was closed down at gunpoint by the FDA.
    I know that people will yell and scream at me but I have personally witnessed people who are close to me overcome diseases through lifestyle change.
    Sir Paul Erlich who invented chemo said “He would never take it.”

    I’m not advocating for anyone to change their way of treatment. But let’s be more opened minded and understand that there are many paths to health and many forms of medicine. Vaccines and chas Vshalom chemo are not the only way.

  25. There are centers all around the world who are successfully curing cancer patients through therapies other than chemo. One of them is Hippocrates in Florida. There are many doctors who are helping people reverse cancer through diet and lifestyle by starving the unhealthy cells through proper nutrition. Dr. Joel Fuhrman MD is one of them. Please don’t assume there is only one way. Like vaccines, this is also being covered up and one of these health centers was closed down at gunpoint by the FDA.
    I know that people will yell and scream at me but I have personally witnessed people who are close to me overcome diseases through lifestyle change.
    Sir Paul Erlich who invented chemo said “He would never take it.”

    I’m not advocating for anyone to change their way of treatment. But let’s be more opened minded and understand that there are many paths to health and many forms of medicine. Vaccines and chas Vshalom chemo are not the only way.

    • This “Hippocrates in Florida” is the one run by Clement? Clement was interviewed and claimed (despite videos to the contrary) that he does NOT offer “cures”?

  26. As someone who has chimed in, strongly, against anti-vaxxers, let me start with the following:
    We don’t hate you. We wish you nothing but the best of health. We don’t want you or your kids sickened or c”v worse by the diseases you refuse to vaccinate for (or any other sickness, obviously).

    We do hate the following:
    We hate that you are endangering your families, including your innocent kids.
    We hate that you are endangering others, including those to young to vaccinate, those who weren’t immunized despite vaccination, those who are medically unable to vaccinate and anyone else who hasn’t been inoculated for any reason, including your fellow anti-vaxxers.
    We hate that you are spreading your dangerous misinformation to others, thereby endangering them and their families, their acquaintances, and anyone else the contact, either directly or indirectly.
    We hate those who knowingly spread lies about vaccinations and fool the gullible into believing those lies.

    Why are we so insistent that anti-vaxxers are wrong?
    Because every single health organization, governmental or not, agrees on this subject.
    Because every single doctor, frum or otherwise – with the exception of a single-digit number of discredited quacks – agrees on this subject.

    Why are we so strident in our opposition?
    Because we care about your health, our health, and the health of our children.
    If there was a similar group of people who insisted that smoking was healthy and kids should be exposed to tobacco smoke, we’d be equally vocal in our condemnation. B”H no such group exists – apparently doctors are trusted on that subject.

    • Once you brought it up, what you wrote about smoking is the biggest s’tirah to the rest of your post.

      You first make it sound like this entire campaign is out of deeo concern for the well neimg of the anti-vaxers.

      If that is true, where is the outcry against smoking?!? Smoking is far worse, accordimng to everyone, than not getting vaccinatrd. Smoking is doing an action which is destined to harm the smoker in some way or another. Where is the outcry against smoking? Espsially now when so many people use Juul which is outlawed in Israel due to the nicotine content.

      If you are really concerned about other people’s well being, there should be a much greater ant-smoking campiagn then the ant-vaxxer campaign. And from a Torah standpoint, there is much more to be concerned with sbout smoking. There is no shomer p’sayom anymore. The smoker is actually puting the poison in his body. It’s much worse than not vaccinating.

      And if your concern is not for the smoker/ anti vaxxer, but rather for yourself and your family, as long as you are vaxxed, you wil be fine.

    • Except that it is the kids injected with the live virus that shed onto others and spread it, just like what happened to Ukraine, which is were this virus in from, the vaccine.
      https://stichtingvaccinvrij.nl/outbreak-of-over-12000-cases-of-measles-in-ukraine-is-caused-by-recent-vaccination-campaign/

      In addition you seem to ignore Danger of the MMR vaccine versus getting measles.
      While one person dies from measles in the USA every year, more than 40 die from the MMR vaccine And tens of thousands have severe adverse reactions like allergies chronic and neurological illnesses as a result.
      These damages from the vaccines can last a lifetime.
      This makes the vaccine 40 times more lethal and thousands of times more harmful then actually getting measles.

      As for your question about supporting smoking it’s the doctors who pushed dangerous smoking decades ago, the same way they’re pushing toxic vaccines now.
      https://youtu.be/hxUZI0vE0FM

  27. nothing wrong with believing in global warming
    or that the world is one milion years old it is not a contradiction to torah
    we believe in torah even if science contradicts it so if torah says the world wont end
    who cares what sciense and facts show torah is true
    just like adam wasnt created a baby so to the world couldve been created aged so when you do science resaerch it will show up as x years old

  28. We believe science when it based on evidence and no ulterier motives. In the case of vaccines it is rediculous to claim that most good and well meaning doctors have an ulterier motive. It is also rediculous to assume that they blindly follow what they were taught and it is all a big scam. Although theoretically that scenario has a very slight possibility, it is so unlikely and far-fetched to assume that is the case. When we see them doing their best to heal, based on the best current data we trust them. Not because they are infallible but because the Torah gave permission to a doctor to heal and the majority of them have no reason at all to blindly follow something that does not really work. To the contrary, lifespans have increased etc and they seem to be doing a fine job – thanks to Hashem. As far as things like evolution many scientists do have an ulterier motive. They want a godless free world. This is an ageold ulterier motive and many scientists do not mind following a fake science blindly if it gives them that result, regardless if they themselves studied the subject.

  29. sounds like a pig pile to me.

    it doesnt make a difference, whether you are anti or pro vaccination… the psak has been given to the tzibur, conversation should be over… unless we are not really listening to the Rabbaium (which is more likely than not)

    and those of you who have used lashon on this thread that points to you being self righteous… dont get too sure of yourself, the anti vaxxers are probably more right than not… but it doesnt change the fact that a majority of our Rabbaium have spoke on this issue… you know how hard it is to get three sheep in a line?

    • Only the vaxxer Rabonim have been publicized. There are many major Gedolim, even here in America, who are anti-vaxxers. Their opinion is know to their followers and will not be publicized by the media.

  30. Your post is so riddled with errors, yet lest you say that those who are “pro-vaccine” are afraid to answer those in the pro-disease camp, here we go:

    In addition to answering ALL your questions, I am happy to correct some errors as well.

    “It has been very hard ordeal for us but it is a sacrifice we are willing to make…”
    Nobody feels bad for your “sacrifice” to endager your family. Moichel toives.

    “I understand that most of the readers on this site have a different opinion than I do on this issue.”
    There sint exactly room for a “different opinion,” we aren’t discussing whether ketchup belongs in cholent or not. A kid died, “Oh ok they are entitltied to their opinion”

    ” For the most part both sides have their answers and rely on their doctors and Rabbonim to decide what’s right for them.”
    Um no. One side has doctors and Rabbonim. The other side has quacks and may be a Rav or two who is misinformed, and now is suddenly “their Rabbonim”

    “Since when do Torah Jews blindly follow science?”
    Never. We aren’t blindly following.
    Though I should note even if we were blindly following science that is without question better than blindly following Jenny Mccarthy.

    “Every Jew I speak to, whether they vaccinate or not, knows that science is not always a field that can be trusted.”
    exactly, so we aren’t blindly following. Now your one question no longer makes sense.

    “These scientists would have you believe that human beings descend from monkeys!”
    No scientist believes that.

    ” These same scientists will also tell you that the world is millions of years old when the Torah clearly contradicts it!”
    Billions, but who is counting

    “So why all of a sudden do we all believe the scientists and doctors when they tell us that vaccines are safe?”
    Because they’ve shown study after study

    ” Given their track record, this newfound faith in doctors and science is inconsistent. ”

    Its not faith. When they are right, they are right. chochma bagoyim taamin.

    “Shouldn’t someone who chooses to distrust the scienctific field get the benefit of the doubt that they might actually be right?”
    No. not at all.

    “I believe that this measles outbreak is a call from Hashem for us to do teshuva and turn back to trusting only in Him.”

    So put your trust in Hashem that if he wanted your message to spread it would have without you writing it on line. Why the need to type it up and hit enter. I see you too are lacking in emunah

    ” Maybe the real difference between the pro vaxxers and the anti vaxxers is that some Jews have become too self assured and declared kochi v’otzem yadi instead of placing their trust in the true Rofeh Cholim.”

    Ooooooor maybe the real difference is that the pro-disease camp is just not that intelligent, and makes arguments like “Because scientists are sometimes wrong, therefore they are always wrong”

  31. Then you shoudn’t use doctors and hospitals for anything even in an emergency! If chas vshalom a potentially life threatening illness disease or injury occur, DO NOT TRUST OUR MEDICAL SYSTEM TO HELP YOU! After all “you cant trust science blindly and rely on them”. Therefore you should resort to natural and herbal cures along with plenty of tefilla, and don’t take up space in our medical facilities, so that people who “believe in Science blindly” can benefit from them instead of you!

  32. Doctors used to recommend smoking as healthy. Then it was found that the tobacco industry was behind the “research”.

    • “Doctors used to recommend smoking as healthy. ”

      In the “kall kisveh ha-chafetz chaim” (and this is certainly the same alleged period of alleged “Doctors used to recommend smoking as healthy”, but in a different allegedly less modern society than the U.S.) there is near the end the book the case of person who the doctors ordered to stop smoking because it was killing him. The patient still smoked. The Chafetz Chaim asked him why he didn’t stop smoking and the response was because he was addicted. To which the Chafetz Chaim responded in no uncertain terms – who gave you the right to ….. and so forth.

      So don’t confuse advertising spin on what doctors actually stated, even in the US. A search of the web shows the alleged “used to recommend smoking as healthy” was in reality advertising spin that stated things like “physicians say brand X cigarettes are less irritating than other brands”. The actual question question asked to physicians was whether the brand was less irritating to the throat – nothing about being healthy (and certainly nothing about cancer etc) That in no way states it was healthy.

      The advertising escalated to things like “not one case of irritated throat with our brand”. Then they went to treat smoking as a medicine – it can be used to sooth a sore throat. It was advertising spin and advertising bafflegab.

      As, for example, a doctor prescribes a brain operation to remove a tumour would one then say I want one of those operations even if I have no tumour because obviously the doctors think it is safe if they recommend it! Advertising spin and the deliberate blindness on the part of the users. You know- like the marijuana that is being legalized today!

      Any case, the entire period of the physician advertising was less than 40 years when the medical journals started to ban tobacco advertising altogether, and shortly later Nixon (a Republican) banned its TV advertising etc.

      So to add a little politics – Republicans banned smoking (as much as was politically feasible) and Democrats are working to bring back smoking (and worse) part 2.

  33. I was vaccinated, more times than most. before my parents were able to take me to japan in 1950’s the military required 18 shots. To the anti vaxxers I am still here, BH, and not in trouble because of the toxins in the vaccines. And my 18 shots all came within a 90 day period. One could conclude, if there was going to be trouble, it would be with me.

    To the pro “vaccinators”, obviously I get your point, however, if we take a moment to look at all the other problems vaccines do cause, then we might not rush to judgment. Epstein Barr for one.

    And there are alternatives. The vaccines most of take or took were what they call “live” vaccines… one big push of a live virus into the guf, we hope your immune system is strong enough to take that onslaught of toxins. If it does then it should create the necessary defenses in case of a future attack… but what if your body doesnt? opps, so sorry?

    One alternative is a “dead” virus vaccine protocol. This is where they put the dead virus into, but multiple times over a six month or year period. The idea here is, your body will begin to build up its defenses but in a much less hostile manner. These vaccines work. I know many children of the 80’s who followed this protocol, who are all functioning adults (by the way, their over all health is superior to those who took live virus vaccines)…

    Both dead and live virus vaccine protocols should be explored. I have never heard of an MD complaining about the dead vaccine therapy… the MD’s I’ve heard or read their words, support both however they lean towards the “live” vaccine. Ask your doctors which is best for you and your family… the alternative should allow anti vaxxers a space to work… and then someone has to ask their Rav or Rebba or Rabbi

  34. I did not read the comments but your article is absolutely ridiculous. You speak about not trusting scientists. This is true when there is a valid reason to believe otherwise. You have failed to bring any proof that there are long term negative effects from vaxing! Where’s your solid proof and evidence that vaccinating is a problem that you are willing to endanger your children and the world???? Point us to 1 reputable article or paper that supports your point of view. Please don’t tell me that you heard of someone who was diagnosed with autism after vaccinating because I know someone who was hit by a car after eating a meal!!

  35. I discussed the issue with Reb Shlomo Miller last week. There is a girl in Bais Yaakov in Toronto who is undergoing chemo who is at risk from the Anti-Vaxxers in the school. I asked him if there is any basis for the hype. (Reb Miller tells all of us not to take ultra-sounds because their safety is unproven). He said that there is likely a connection between the increased incident of anaphylaxis and vaccines. But, the clear medical gain, as seen from the near eradication of so many communicable diseases clearly out weighs the risks.
    To those who claim a “religious” exemption he had this to say. “They don’t belong in our schools, as there no basis in Yiddishkeit for being Anti-Vax.”

    • Where are the long-term studies showing the supposed safety of vaccines? They don’t exist.
      Why are vaccines constantly being recalled, reviewed, changed – and then huge amounts of money being paid in compensation for injury if their safety is proven?
      Ultrasounds – great example. I challenge you, however, to find a doctor who will agree with this rav’s position. They will all, almost without exception, insist that US is 100% safe and even that it is important to do US in order to detect problems etc.
      So please find some consistency in your arguments, or just accept that different rabbonim have different positions and that all are valid.

  36. If you don’t vaccinate and have children and don’t vaccinate them cps should be called to find a safe home for your children.

  37. It seems like many people agree that there are risks in regard to vaccination. Some people are convinced that the risks are minor others are convinced that the risks are major. But it seems that many pro-vaxxers and Rabbonim are putting trust in vaccines based on the fact that they have successfully eradicated diseases. The truth is that this too is being hotly debated. Watch what Dr. Susan Humphries MD who studied this topic in depth has to say:
    https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/01/18/history-vaccination.aspx

  38. anti vaxxers have every right to their opinion but they have no right to inflict their opinion on the vast majority. if you dont want to vaccinate your children for reasons that are valid to you, then you have every right to keep your kids home. it’s that simple. just as you object to your children being vaccinated and dont want the health dept or the schools to force you to do what you oppose, how does that allow you to force everyone else to do what you propose–to ignore school rules?

  39. To the anti vaxers……

    Doesn’t it say in the Torah ונשמרתם מאוד לנפשושכם??? Isnt that the main thing???!!!! NO ONE would ch’v want to be the cause of passing on this disease ch’v for some people catching the illness could be fatal r’l as we have heard about in the news….. a child who has NOT been vaccinated yet or even a child who has and is just a bit more vunrable i shudder to think…. i wouldn’t ch’v want ANYONE near me catching IT…….
    I have also heard that it could be dangerous for adults too…..
    So PLEASE be considerate to others…..

  40. Chances of dying due to…..:
    Heart disease, 1 in 6.
    Cancer, 1 in 7.
    Stroke, 1 in 28.
    Motor vehicle accidents, 1 in 88.
    Intentional self-harm, 1 in 112.
    Accidental poisoning and exposure to noxious substances, 1 in 130.
    Falls, 1 in 171.
    Car crashes, 1 in 303.
    Measles: 1 in 1000 (based on CDC before vaccine development)
    https://www.cdc.gov/measles/downloads/measlesdataandstatsslideset.pdf
    TIME TO PUT YOUR EFFORTS INTO OTHER PROBLEMS YOU GOT IN LIFE !!!!

  41. When somebody is freshly vaccinated they go through what is called “viral shedding”. When the virus that they have been injected with sheds. At this time the person who was vaccinated is actually very catchy. If its true that many people in Lakewood just went to get vaccinated, there is a good chance that the amount of cases of measles will actually go up.
    In history, every time there was mandatory vaccinations, the amount of breakouts went up tremendously. of course the anti vaxxers will be blamed because the science is being covered up.
    There are a lot of myths surrounding vaccinations. What many people think is “obvious” is being debated by researchers.

    • TO PRO VAXERS ARE ALSO CAYCHY

      You might be right but definetly not as catchy as someone who has the ACTUAL disease r’l…… one is vacinated with the illnesd particles but ONE wont ACTUALLY come out with the disease.
      PLEASE HELP OTHERS TO BE PROTECTED BY PROTECTING YOURSELF (EVEN IF YOU MIGHT BE THE FIRST ONE DOING IT….. YOU NEVER KNOW BY STARTING OUT AND GOING TO IT DONE……. YOU NEVER KNOW OTHERS MIGHT FOLLOW ……….
      LET US HELP AND ERRADICATE THIS ILLNESS
      BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY!!!!

  42. As a man on the the wall, my kids get all their vaccines, but i spent a lot of time researching the pros and cons of vaccination. I don’t blame, but have the greatest respect for the anti-vaxes. they are not ignoramuses but intelligent parents who love and want to protect their children. It seems from the comments here that those apposed are putting their faith in the doctors and attacking them from ignorance.
    Doctors are good and caring people who want their clients to be healthy and well. They are taught by university’s that are controlled in part by greedy drug companies. They give lots of money and use their “studies” in the university to prove that their medications are the answers. Doctors receive follow up education on new medications from who? you guessed it, those same companies. Doctors are given kick-back to push certain medications too. Thinking that this helps their patients they are happy to comply. This doesn’t mean that all meds are bad, but there are quite a few that are not worth taking. It is up to the parent to decide whether they are safe or not for their children, not the doctors. there is a lot more to write, but i hope you get the picture and can start respecting the anti-vaxes.

    • Which poseik school did you go to? Where did the din of rodef come in to the picture? A rodef, one is allowed to kill. Are you suggesting we should arm ourselves with guns and murder any parent or child that is not vaccinated?

  43. The torah commands b’frish to go to DRS…v’rapeh yerapeh. Gemmorah
    nedorim 39 -41 Paskened in Yoreh Dayeh 334 (Approx) One who does not go to Dr and dies is a ROTZEACH!And what does Drs that treat you with ? With medecines science discovered . And how did they discover by the ‘boirey refuous’ that gave them the seichel

  44. To the person that wrote;

    Chances of dying due to…..:
    Heart disease, 1 in 6.
    Cancer, 1 in 7.
    Stroke, 1 in 28.
    Measles: 1 in 1000 (based on CDC before vaccine development)

    You are missing the whole point.

    The chance of a child under one years old or an unborn fetus dying (both of whom are too young to get the MMR vaccine) because of your heart disease or your cancer or your stroke is ZERO but if you don’t get vaccinated for measles you are putting our babies and unborn children at risk of death. The more people realize this the more the public will come together and demand that you don’t come to our schools, shuls, simchas, stores etc… and put us at risk. We can not allow the misguided ideas of a few put the lives of many at risk.

    • WRONG. The reason why young children are not given the MMR vaccine is that they are assumed to be covered by their mother’s immunity, and therefore the addition of vaccine would not achieve anything. Rather, the doctors want to vaccinate when the natural immunity recedes. So babies are not at risk – that is, if you believe the doctors.
      Funny how so many pro-vaxxers are unaware even of what the doctors themselves say…

  45. One in a thousand deaths from measles sounds like a very high number. When I checked it was much much lower than that.

    • “much much lower than that.”

      Is this “much much lower than that” rate include the much milder measles cases that result when those vaccinated still get measles? More to the point, is the “much much lower than that” rate with or without expensive modern medicine and treatment for those who contracted the disease? Indeed, with enough money to pay for treatment those who contract the disease will have a lower death rate. But, for example, in the beginning of the 20th century which already had reduced the death rate with better nutrition (as compared to the 19th century) and some elementary medical treatment there were recorded in the U.S. 6,000 measles deaths per year to 3 or 4 million measles cases per year.

  46. Google Healing from Vaccines. It’s a webinar that started last week and will be on this week as well. There are many md doctors and health professionals on there who give much important information on this subject, as well as hope for reversing someof the damage caused by these “safe” vaccines. Don’t forget who funds and sets the curricula for medical school, besides continuously educating doctors on drug use. Yup, you guessed it! The pharmaceutical companies!! Do your research and don’t follow blindly. Read Confessions of a Medical Heretic by the late Dr. Robert Mendelssohn, MD. He was way ahead of his time. Too bad it takes all of us so long to get the message

  47. Just me, your stats don’t mean anything because you are comparing Measles, which is extremely contagious, to other scenarios, like cancer, falls, heart disease, stroke, car accidents, etc. which are not!!! In pre-vaccination times, thousands of people (or more) would have already contracted measles during an outbreak (not hundreds like now). So there would have been a couple of deaths at this point c”v.

    To all Anti-Vaxxers. Do some research why and how vaccines were discovered. The first vaccine was for Smallpox which killed millions of people yearly. Quoted from Wikipedia:
    During the 18th century the disease killed an estimated 400,000 Europeans each year, including five reigning monarchs, and was responsible for a third of all blindness.[3] Between 20 and 60% of all those infected—and over 80% of infected children—died from the disease.[4] During the 20th century, it is estimated that smallpox was responsible for 300–500 million deaths.[5][6][7] In the early 1950s an estimated 50 million cases of smallpox occurred in the world each year.[8] As recently as 1967, the World Health Organization estimated that 15 million people contracted the disease and that two million died in that year.[8] After successful vaccination campaigns throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, the WHO certified the global eradication of smallpox in December 1979.[8] Smallpox is one of two infectious diseases to have been eradicated, the other being rinderpest, which was declared eradicated in 2011.

    Imagine we would still be dealing with Smallpox today??!!!!

  48. George,

    Regarding the Gr”a quoted by someone, its really in the Ramban parshas בחוקותי. In any case, the Ramban holds it is an ultimate level of bitachon that we should all be zochah to achieve but it really has to be on all ends, wherein there are very few in each generation.

    Generally speaking, the post has failed to represent the case of why not.

    Why is it ‘neged’ haTorah’ ?
    there is a saying from one of the great ones: betachon should only be utilized for oneself but NOT when it comes to another Jew: Don’t be a baal betachon “oif yenems cheshbon”!

    Hence, If not taking it can endanger others you have no right to use betachon as an excuse.

    Unless you have more to add, you have failed to explain your case.

    • Seeing as I am the only “george” I can find on this article, I assume you are referring to me. So I ask you – what case do you think I was trying to make?

  49. “Ushmartem es Nafshosechem” is also a Mitsvah; the Chidushei Harim once pointed out to his youngest son; father of the Sfas Emes. All of Blessed Memory. For Yiddish readers; see also: Hayom Tom; Yud Shevat; (p.18). A very interesting “vort” attrubuted to the Tzemach Tzedek. Actually, a profound lesson, for every “Torah Yid”.
    To, or not to, vaccinate is NOT a matter of ‘belief’ or ’emunah”. Vaccination is a proven, empirical, preventive, medical practice, beyond the shadow of a doubt; since 1796 when Edward Jenner, an English physician / scientist first introduced the procedure for the prevention of smallpox.
    On a personal note. I’m a “veteran” of the dreaded, yearly, summer polio season; prior to the advent of the Salk & Sabin polio vaccines in the mid-1950’s. I vividly remember the 1951 polio epidemic in the Province of Quebec; over 800 cases of bulbar & non-paralytic polio in the Montreal area alone. The schools, which normally opened on the Tuesday following Labor Day, were closed until the middle of October. Being a “Ben Yachid”, my mother was literally, terrified. Nothing ‘passed my lips’, that was not either boiled of toasted. When the Salk vaccine (injectable vs. Sabin, oral vaccine), became available, around 1957; there I was, first in line to be vaccinated. And, believe me, my parents were Frum!; descended from a long line of Belzer Chassidim in the ‘old country’. I’m a first generation Canadian.
    So, it boggles the imagination, of Frum “Yungeleit” (wives included, “Bayso zu Ishto”); many of whom are ‘Talmeidei Chachamim; taught to be critical in their learning & thinking, can be so blindsided, once outside the ‘walls of the Beis Medrosh’. A ‘Chasi Shote” is invariably, frowned upon.

  50. And here’s my simple answer to the brilliant Question above. YOU ARE CONFLATING SCIENCE AND MEDICINE!! They are very different.

    • To Anti KlienKop:
      NO! They are NOT!!
      The practice of medicine is BOTH an Art and a Science. Both sides of this “coin” are based on the objective and empirical physical and biological sciences; in accordance with accepted therapeutic principles. Followed by rigorous testing using both animal and human populations; under the supervision of: Academic, State & Federal agencies.

  51.  Relationship Between Conflicts of Interest and Research Results
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1494677/
    Excerpt: Private health care companies heavily invest in “independent” researchers. Those researchers with COI are more likely to present positive findings. Pharmaceutical companies spent approximately $23 billion on clinical research in 2001 as compared with $18 billion from the National Institute of Health.21 Physicians often begin receiving pharmaceutical gifts and remuneration as early as the first year of medical school.22These investments establish long-term relationships with the “middle-man” (i.e., clinical researchers) in order to have access to study populations23 and capitalize upon the notion of consensual validity these “objective” independent researchers have among consumers….
    Though remuneration does not necessarily result in unethical behavior, it can be a strong catalyst for it.18

     Prevalence of industry support and its relationship to research integrity
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19353387
    Excerpt: Here we show first-hand knowledge that compromises occurred in: research participants’ well-being (9%), research initiatives (35%), publication of results (28%), interpretation of research data (25%), and scientific advancement (20%) because of industry support. Financial relationships with industry were prevalent and considered important to conducting respondents’ research.

     The unofficial vaccine educators: Are CDC-funded non-profits sufficiently independent?
    http://vaccinesafetycommission.org/pdfs/bmj.j5104.full.pdf

     How independent are vaccine defenders?
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-independent-are-vaccine-defenders/

    They’re some of the most trusted voices in the defense of vaccine safety: the American Academy of Pediatrics, Every Child By Two, and pediatrician Dr. Paul Offit. But CBS News has found these three have something more in common – strong financial ties to the industry whose products they promote and defend.

    Academic Medical Center Leadership on Pharmaceutical Company Board of Directors (click on the PDF box)
    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1853147

  52. I don’t think vaccines work. If my vaccinated kid and his entire class are at risk if one healthy unvaccinated kid walks into the room I say the “vaccine” is not working at all.
    Its possible this is why the anti vaxxers are not bothering with it. I’ve never heard of someone getting measles twice because there’s real immunity after the first round. The vaccine does not seem to give immunity at all if we still need to fear healthy unvaccinated people even after we had our shots

  53. We don’t live in a vacuum. Even if all your chaveirim get vaccinated, you are bound to come into contact with an unvaccinated person every day of your life. There are a few billion people we share the earth with. Many of them will never get vaccinated. From your mailman to gardner to young man behind the counter in the pizza shop to neighbor walking his dog to janitor in our building, to salesman in Walmart, to waiter at your daughters Chassuna, to illegal girl spraying down the bathroom in your doctors office as you wait to get your shot, etc, etc…. For those who live perpetual fear, I say good luck. Seek help.

  54. You are right. The true nature of the world is determined by Hashem not the pharmaceutical companies. True science is continuously asking questions not just following. I don’t understand how people can ignore the abundance of evidence of vaccine harm. This black and white and one-sided conversation is really just an ego War.

  55. everyone is concerned about whether to or not to vaccinate.

    again it doesnt matter, the Rabbaium of the majority has spoken.

    but why isnt anyone talking about what type of vaccines to take, dead or live? Why isnt anyone seeing the differences and how they both vaccinate our children. stop arguing about the whether too or not… debate which type your child should take. Anti vaxxers will not be against dead vaccine protocols… it will just take longer to immunize your child, but it still works within the anti vaxxers beliefs.

    when you have ways that satisfy both sides of the coin, then what is the argument about? Deborah got it right… this is “just an ego War”

  56. Chosid shoteh! Your fanaticism has gotten children killed. ..and true science trumps Torah. There were gedolim in the Talmud who thought that the Sun revolves around the Earth. …and the Earth is billions of years old. So says the Ramban. Believe it or not, you can still be a frum Yid and depend on doctors rather than Rabbanim to heal you.

  57. All of you chachomim who are anti vax,have you ever known anybody who had polio?
    back in the 1950’s and earlier ,there were lots of kids in the yeshiva system who were crippled by this horrible disease.
    Many of them are still alive today.This disease suddenly disappeared after the invention of the Salk vaccine.None of the anti vaxxers have seen people afflicted by this disease.I guess the godol who is anti vax,never noticed how many of his peers suffered from polio.Nor has he noticed that the disease has disappeared.

    • “Shotim: Please provide proof that the vaccines stopped the sickness. Many big doctors have confirmed they believe that the sicknesses stopped because of better hygiene etc., So why should I risk injecting poisen into my children if the doctors won’t show the documented proof for these “facts”
      One Senater who is a doctor asked for this on the Senate floor after bringing tens of documented casualties from vaccines and got no response….I wonder why!!! I actually don’t wonder why……

  58. Letter is very emotional, but inconsistent on a practical level. If you didn’t vaccinate your kids because your doctor said that for your kids in their circumstance/experience it’s not the right thing to do, that would be a MEDICAL exception. No one takes issue with medical exemptions, and no one would be looking down at you for that. So either you’re not reporting accurately on the former or you’re imagining the latter.

    Now, if you have a medical reason not to vaccinate your kid(s), you would not be an ANTI-VAXXER! You would be a mother of kids who are currently not vaccinated. Anti means being against, thinking that vaccines are bad and dangerous and a big fictitious money-maker and no one should use them. So please make up your mind —- are you an anti-vaxxer? Or are you not vaccinating because your doctor said it’s not the right thing for your kids just now?

    And wait, someone who doesn’t vaccinate for medical reasons — why would they be upset or insulted when the HD or doctors or Rabbanim or school administrators ask them to stay out of school for a couple of weeks so that an epidemic can wind down quicker? It’s not someone’s “fault” that they’re allergic to eggs or too weak to get the vaccine — but they’re not the ones complaining about staying home for the greater good of ending an epidemic, are they?!

    (And I didn’t even touch upon your mishmashing of science and medicine, comparing evolution to vaccines is way off base!)

    Some people, and it’s not only the letter-writer, are so defensive that they’re not making sense…… clearly no one’s harassing those who are allergic to the vaccines or otherwise unable to vaccinate right now!!

  59. Can a doctor reading this please answer this question:
    ACIP recently removed four reactions as reasons not to give the second and third doses of DtaP vaccine after the first dose causes one or more of these reactions (ACIP sets vaccine policy).
    The four reactions are:
    Fever of more than 105 degrees within 48 hours of dose
    Persistent, inconsolable crying lasting more than 3 hours within 48 hours
    Collapse or shock-like state within 48 hours
    Seizure within 72 hours of dose

    These are all symptoms of possible brain inflammation – encephalitis. Since the Merck Manual states that both viruses and vaccines can cause encephalitis, how would a doctor know one way or the other if a child was experiencing encephalitis from the vaccine? And if the doctor cannot say for sure one way or the other, how can he in good conscience give that child the second and third dose of that same vaccine? Does the possible small risk of getting diptheria or pertussis or tetanus override the danger of three instances of brain inflammation from three doses of DtaP?

  60. I want to mention something else about ACIP, a division of the CDC who decides vaccine policy for children and adults.
    At their last meeting held in October, the work group tasked with studying Hepatitis A vaccine for the homeless population reported to the ACIP voting members about their findings.

    The work group reviewed four studies on homeless people who had gotten hepatitis A vaccine. One study focused on reduction in disease burden, and the other three studies focused on adverse events (effects).

    They showed charts to the ACIP voting members that showed in two of the four studies the name of the vaccine was not known and in three of the four studies the dosage of the vaccine was not known. They reported that there was no control group for any of these studies. The only adverse events reported from all the studies were four cases of jaundice. They then showed another chart that showed the “overall quality of evidence”. It was rated VERY LOW, and included these two sentences: Limitations in determining the estimates of the effects as no study had a comparison group available. Unable to determine the overall quality of evidence as only one study was available for GRADE.

    After hearing this information, the ACIP voting members voted unanimously to recommend routine vaccination of all homeless people with Hepatitis A. The next day the Washingon Post had this story headline: “Expert Panel Urges Hepatitis A Shot for Homeless in the U.S.”

    If this was an expert panel, I would hate to see what a non-expert panel consists of! No control groups, and names of vaccines and dosages not known for all studies, and did they really expect homeless people to go back to where they got their vaccine to report any side effects, when many of these unfortunate individuals are on drugs, or drinking, or do not even know where they are ????

    Now you may be saying, wonderful, let the homeless people be protected from Hep A. However keep in mind two things. Give it a little time and ACIP will add Hepatitis A as a recommended vaccine to all adults in the US. They will say that studies have been done that show there are no serious side effects from Hepatitis A. They may even add in that since the homeless population are at risk for Hep A (I am not saying this is not true), every adult in the US should also get the vaccine because one never knows when they may become homeless, or have a homeless person sit next to them in the subway, etc.

    And even more scarier to consider is this: What kind of studies and evidence are they using when they vote on vaccines for our children ??? How “expert” are those panels??

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