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Opinion: Torah Judaism’s Outlook on Secular Studies & College
By Yosef
The Rama 246:4 rules explicitly that it is absolutely prohibited according to Halachah to engage in a curriculum of secular studies. To read secular studies now and then is permitted, he says. The source of the Rama is the Yerushalmi Sanhedrin.
It has been suggested the difference between a curriculum and just a glance is that this prohibition is not due to Bitul Torah but rather a Bizayon HaTorah, by establishing studies in areas other than Torah, it shows that you believe they have some value that would justify learning them when you could have been learning Torah.
Rav Shimon Schwab ZT’L sought the Torah opinions of two great authorities, Rav Boruch Ber Liebowitz ZT’L and Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT’L, regarding college education. Their responses were as follows:
Conclusion of Birkas Shmuel (Kiddushin #27 p. 42):
“What emerges is (a) that according to the Torah the obligation of Banim Ubeni Banim means you must make your children into Geonei and Chachmei Torah - and not merely to prepare them for life as a Jew. But rather, you must teach them and get them to learn the entire Torah, and if chas v’sholom you do not, you violate the entire Mitzvah of learning Torah as per Banim Ubnei Banim.
(b) Universities and gymnasiums (i.e. secondary schools) are prohibited because of Apikursus [that they teach]. My Rebbi (i.e. Rav Chaim Soloveichik ZT’L) prohibited them even in war time, and even to save a life, for to avoid violating this, even a Jewish life is to be spent. (c) To learn secular studies on a regular basis is prohibited, as per the Rama 246:4 … Brothers, please do Teshuva while there is still time, for the enlightenment (Haskalah) has blinded our eyes and weakened us. For we have no benefit in this world at all - both spiritually and physically - except from Torah. All the strength of Klall Yisroel is from the Torah … we should do Tehsuva and repair the Batei Medrashos that have been broken by the Enlightenment.”
Kovetz Shiurim II:47:
Question: Under what circumstances is it permitted to learn secular studies?
Answer: (a) If you must learn books that contain apikursus, it is prohibited … needless to say even to make money or to prevent a loss thereof. (b) If you must sit in school with Goyim, and it causes someone to befriend the Goyim and their ways, it is prohibited as per the Lo Saseh of Hishomer Lecha etc. for the Torah commanded us to distance ourselves from the Goyim in every way…
(c) If the studies do not cause you to learn Apikursus or to befriend Goyim, and you learn secular studies in order to know a skill to make a living, it is permitted, and it is a Mitzvah. However, this is only in general. But if a person sees that his son wants to learn Torah and he is prepared to be a Gadol B’Torah, in such a case R. Nehuray said: “I will forgo all skills in the world and teach my son only Torah.”… (d) If you don’t need the studies for Parnasa, and you just want to be involved in them, there is reason to prohibit because of Bitul Torah, as per the Rama in YD 246, who writes that it is forbidden to learn secular studies on a regular basis….perhaps it is not due to Bitul Torah but rather it ia an affront to the honor of the Torah … someone who set out to learn secular subjects indicates that he believes that they have a purpose in and of themselves [besides for parnasa], and that is against the Torah’s opinion. [see above]…”
Reb Elchonon continues, saying that the confusion in Germany happened when people thought, mistakenly, that by Jews possessing secular knowledge the Goyim will hate them less. This caused a “negiyos” - a vested interest - that caused the German Jews to desire that their rabbis have a secular education as well.
Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L also denounced college in a Teshuva, and in a famous speech delivered to his students, published under the title “The Counsel of the Wicked” (Vaad LeHaromas Keren HaTorah, New York, 1978). There he reiterates that everyone has an obligation to become great in Torah, we should not care so much about Cadillac’s (yes, this was said in the “olden days”), and that learning Torah is what we should be pursuing, not secular stuff. He says in America you do not need college to make a Parnassa, and we should be willing to live on little, not a lot, for the sake of Torah, and that R. Nehuray’s statement of abandoning all skills in favor of Torah applies all that more today that we live in a country where you can make a parnassa without college, with no miracles needed.
(As an aside, the standard of livelihood required is bare minimum. “Kach hi darkah shel torah - pas b’melach tochal etc.” - Bread, salt and water - if you have that, you have parnasah. The Rambam writes that a typical Baal Habayis works 3 hours a day and learns 8.)
There is a tape available in many Seforim stores called “The prohibition to learn in Colleges” (Yiddish), which contains addresses by Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L and Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L condemning college.
Regarding High School, the only reasons it is allowed is either because education is mandated by State Law (in New York it is until age 17), or simply because if they did not have High School education in the Yeshivas, parents would simply send their kids to worse places to get it.
But it is definitely looked upon not as a l’chatchilah, but rather as something that is annoyingly necessary in the current environment.
Today, there are a small number of High Schools in America - particularly in Lakewood - that do not teach English. Also, many Yeshivos do try to reduce the amount of secular studies as much as possible, through knocking out the last semester of English, and a number of kids are leaving HS early to enter Bais Medrash.
Rav Chaim Segal ZT’L, the Menahel of the High School at Yeshiva Chaim Berlin was once told by Rav Shach ZT’L that if possible, he should not be teaching English studies. In Eretz Yisroel, almost all Chareidi Yeshivos do not have English at that age. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L made some kind of commitment not to allow English studies on the HS level in Lakewood. The exact details, and if this was actually a Takanah or merely a preference, is not clear and depends who you ask. In any case, Rabbi Elya Svei, Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a student of Rav Aharon’s, was asked why he allows English in Philly if Rav Aharon was against it. What difference can there be between the town of Lakewood NJ and Philadelphia PA? Reb Elya answered that he has no choice, and that currently, the Baalei Batim would not send their kids to the Yeshiva except under these circumstances.
Is any of this the ideal? No. It is not. Is it justified? The schools say it is, as they have no choice. But the point is not what the Jews do, its what Judaism wants. Everyone agrees that it would be a higher level, a preferable situation if we would indeed not learn English even at the HS level, at least not beyond what is necessary to survive. Nobody claims it is an ideal.
The Chasam Sofer in Parsha Beshalach states clearly that certain secular knowledge is useful for learning certain Torah topics, such as cow anatomy being useful for shechitah, and arithmetic for Eruvin and Sukkah. But that before we embark on obtaining secular knowledge - and of course that means only to the extent that it is useful for our Torah studies - we must first fill ourselves with Torah-only knowledge. After we are strong in Torah, only then can we move to acquire the useful secular knowledge that we need for our Torah studies.
He quotes the Rambam, who he describes as “the father of philosophy” in our religion, in Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah, stating that a person may not learn philosophy until after he has “filled his stomach” with Shas and Poskim, which are the things, and only the things, that bring us Olam Habah. Then he quotes the Rashba, saying that there is a cherem against learning any secular studies if you are under age 25! The he quotes the Gemora in Brachos “Keep your children away from science” (higayon, as some meforshim translate it), noting that the Gemora is directing its prohibition at “your children”, but not at the adults, for adults, who are already advanced in Torah knowledge, need some secular knowledge, such as cow biology (I keep emphasizing that so that we do not make the error of thinking that the secular knowledge that we need is a college education). But it is dangerous for us to pursue it until we are armed and ready with a Torah foundation. This is because someone with a Torah perspective looks at the value and culture of of secular studies differently than does someone ignorant of Torah. And we do want to get the proper perspective.
It’s kind of like firemen putting out a fire. They have to (a) dress in their heat-resistant protective outfits, and (b) run into the fire and put it out. But of course, they have to do it in the right order.
And that is indeed what it boils down to - do we value the Torah’s standards of education more than that of the secular world or vice versa? The choice is simple: All the secular “education” that you get will be useless to you in the next world. There, they will not ask you if you know how many US presidents were re-elected in history, or whether you are familiar with the policies of Chairman Mao, or if you know how to program a computer. They will bring a Sefer Torah scroll to you and ask “do you know what it says in here?” The more you know of that, the more you will be considered “educated”. The less you know, the more you will be considered ignorant. So the question is - do I want to be educated on this world or on the next?
And please note, there is no minimum threshold for the amount of Torah you are obligated to know. The rule is: more is better; less is worse. And the difference between just a little more and a little less is staggering. As the Vilna Gaon points out, one word of Torah knowledge gives you more holiness than an entire lifetime’s worth of doing other Mitzvos.
And here we thought that a secular education is expensive! It’s much more expensive than you think - you can acquire it only at the expense of your time and effort that you could have been putting toward becoming educated in Olam Habah.
Two things, though. First, the prohibition is only to learn secular studies as a regular curriculum. Second, to read about them occasionally in your spare time is permitted.
The opinions expressed here are solely those of the author and do not reflect the views of this website.
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124 Responses to “Opinion: Torah Judaism’s Outlook on Secular Studies & College”
2. Comment from FiveTownsAnon
Time November 9, 2009 at 12:36 PM
1) For parnasa it is permitted.
2) Translating Higayon as science is rather a stretch.
3) The prohibition of Chochmas Yevanis may refer to Greek Philosophy or mythology, and not to science which may be part of Maaseh Breishis according to the Rambam.
4) One can use a telescope on Shabbos to learn chochma, kal vachomer on chol.
5) Is it factually true today that one can make a living without college and high school? How many job ads have you seen recently which were directed at 7th graders?
6) Could Rabbonim who discourage college and secular studies and cause families to suffer untold agmas nefesh with parnasa and foreclosures have to give a din vcheshbon in shamayim on why they destroyed yiddishe families?
7) Have you looked at the Rambam who says that anybody who allows himslef to be supported by the public and doesn’t learn a trade is mevazeh the daas, and causes a chilul shem shamayim?
The gemara says one who doesn’t teach his son a profession teaches him to steal.
9) Do people still make a living today by spinning pottery at a wheel, or do they need sophisticated training in today’s high-tech world to make ends meet. 100,000 dollars today may still mean poverty for many families.
3. Comment from Orthowatch.blogspot.com
Time November 10, 2009 at 9:17 AM
Oh please.
My brother was a talmud of R’ Segal zt”l. He wanted to quit secular studies early, and learn the whole day. R’ Segal did not allow it, and told him he had to get at least a high school diploma so that later on, he’d be able to make a living. This contradicts your story about him.
The Kovetz Shiurim you quoted says that going to college to be able to earn a living is a mitzvah. There are many Jewish schools where you don’t have to worry about apikorsis, led by YU and Touro.
why do you feel the need to post it over and over again? Do you really think you’ll convince a college student to drop out? Good luck with that. Just remember, without the college-educated baalei batim, there would be nobody to support the kollel families.
4. Comment from Reality Check
Time November 10, 2009 at 9:23 AM
applies all that more today that we live in a country where you can make a parnassa without college, with no miracles needed.
THIS IS NOT A FACT, making a living man’s parnassa is much more likely with a college degree (no high school diploma, no interview, besides working as a cashier or take out place).
The inya of ‘kiddush hashem’ was not touch upon at all by this writer. We, today, live in a society with non-observant jews, non jews, etc. our lives are meshed in the streets, work place, educational jobs and the need to increase ‘kavod shamayim’ on a daily basis is a core chiyuv of klal yisroel. One who can not speak the language of the land, write to be understood and knowledgeable on simple features of society is a constant boosha to our ‘holy nation’.
5. Comment from yw
Time November 10, 2009 at 9:32 AM
What about women?
6. Comment from Yosef
Time November 10, 2009 at 9:48 AM
#5,
Good question. Reb Elchonon discusses this in his responsum. He says that girls would also be prohibited if the prohibition is due to the affront to Kovod HaTorah involved with college, but if the prohibition is only due to Bitul Torah, it seems he is not certain. His words are:
“If the prohibition is due to Bitul Torah, maybe it applies only to men but not to women, but the truth is, women are also obligated to learn the Halachos that pertain to them in order to fulfill the Mitzvos.
“Or perhaps, even without this reason [of Bitul Torah] it is prohibited to learn secular studies regularly, so as not to give them value like the value of the Torah….”
He does not come to a conclusion regarding this.
Women still get reward for learning (those parts of Torah that they are allowed to learn, of course), even though it is not as great as the reward for a man. They are “aino metzuveh v’oseh”. Women need Torah too. Without Torah, you can’t get Olam Habah. And so the Gemora asks the quesiton: Nashim b’,ai zachyan - How do women merit Olam Habah if they do not learn Torah? The Gemora answers; Bakroei banaihu l’bei kenishta, ib’asniyei gavraihu bai rabanon - by supporting and helping their husband and children learn.
7. Comment from oy
Time November 10, 2009 at 9:54 AM
Rav moshe also gave smiha to people who went to college and graduate school and that is a fact.
college is alot better than becoming a bad businessman with no business sense.
8. Comment from Yosef
Time November 10, 2009 at 10:08 AM
Excuse me but all “secular” subjects can be found in the Torah.Math, and Science ect. in the Gemorah.So in essence everything as long as it’s not an apikorsus version of it is in the Torah.
Also boys need a proper secular education for a number of reasons:
A) For Parnasa
B) According to - I believe it’s Rav Pam that says that if you are learning Secular subjects make sure that it is being taught properly otherwise it is real bittul Torah.Boys schools if Secular subjects are being taught- Teaching Secular subjects in a shfach way is unacceptable!
3) Even if someone wants to be a Rebbe or a Rav, personally I would not want to hear a Shiur or have my child being taught by someone who can barely string a sentence or two together that doesn’t makes sense.When a Rav comes across as knowing how to speak properly people will respect them more.I am talking about the basics here! Not someone who would be able to write an English Dictionary!
I know that there a lot of Rabbonim that take psychology classes/courses which help them in dealing with community issues!
9. Comment from Anonymous
Time November 10, 2009 at 10:23 AM
you are a Chotei Umachti es Harabim. You are also Megale Panim Batorah Shelo Kehalacha. You are also making comparisons from Teshuva sefarim which have no relevance to todays day and age. It is patently ridiculous to make a comparison between secular studies discussed by the Rashba, and todays regimen, which is absolutely neccessary in order to develop a career that can support a family. It is also dishonest to compare the world of Rav Moshe Feinstein in 1978 to the world of 2009. In those days there were indeed many opportunities to start a business with little education and to succeed and even to succeed well beyond what someone with a college education could accomplish. Unfortunately that is no longer the case. The result of not being prepared to make an adequate livelihood in todays day and age is family disfunctionality, poverty, and all the that goes along with that. Parents, Rebbeim, and Roshei Yeshiva, have a moral obligation to explain this to their children and talmidim and not decieve them. You can not support a frum family by cleaning floors or driving a UPS truck, even if you manage to get on some of the government programs like food stamps and medecaid. It is not only a mitzva to get an education in order to support your family, it is an obligation, unlness you have rich parents or rich in laws who are willing to support you. Lastly, If you think the Roshei Yeshiva agree with you, then lets see a proclamation from all the yeshivas and girl schools stating that tuition is free to all those who can’t make a living because they did not get an education.
10. Comment from respondent
Time November 10, 2009 at 10:34 AM
Correction. The Rambam says a baal habayis works 3 hours and learns 9 hours- not 8
11. Comment from A Rabbi
Time November 10, 2009 at 10:39 AM
This article begins with a misquote from Rama 246:4.
Any talmud chachom who reads this Ramah
will immediately see that the Ramah is unlclear, and does NOT rule “explicitly that it is absolutely prohibited according to Halachah to engage in a curriculum of secular studies”.
The Shach, on that spot (ibid 6), while wrestling to interpert the ambiguities in the Ramah, says that he is referring for example, to such topics as astronomy, space, and kabballah for which these studies should be put off until later in life.
However, the custom now in many frum communities is to learn Kabbalh at a younger age.
Since Historically, kabbalah and science (ex: maa’seh b’raishis) was purposely studied at the same time, it would not be wise too seperate these and eliminate only science. So where do we go from here? Should we just follow half of these priciples? wouldn’t it be dangerous to follow a new derech whereby people who study kabbalah are totally ignorant of science and the ways of the world?
Think…
12. Comment from Big Boy
Time November 10, 2009 at 11:02 AM
Why wasn’t Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch mentioned? How about Rav Esriel Hildesheimmer? How about Rav Yoseph Breuer? Even Rav Simon Schwab issued a retraction, called “Elu V’elu”.
13. Comment from Excellent Article
Time November 10, 2009 at 11:08 AM
Yasher Koach! I know many people don’t want to hear this, and it surely wont win you any popularity contests, but thank you for putting out the Emes as our Achronim and Gedolim quoted above have defined quite clearly.
14. Comment from chaimz
Time November 10, 2009 at 11:30 AM
It’s interesting to see this discussion played out again. Throughout the generations this has been the subject of many psokim, our generation included. The oft-quoted Rambam of m’lastem es habriyos is balanced by the Kesef Mishna on the spot who says that his generation is different - we would have no gedolim if we didn’t dedicate ourselves to pure learning. R. Gifter zt”l did not allow college in Telz, R. Ruderman allowed it in Baltimore. I can have no opinion when it comes to Halacha, our gedolim are the only source for this.
However, I can comment on the ‘need’ for college. In my career as a manager for a Fortune 500 company, I never, ever was interested in a college degree. I interviewed thousands of people and hired many hundreds and I only cared if the person could do the job. His/her degree, color, height, religion or political opinions played no role in the decision. As a rule, academia is far removed from the real world - in the first 2 weeks on the job a person learns far more than they do in school.
If the person wants to be an accountant or doctor, they need college. However, there are many jobs where college is simply a waste of time. A relative of mine who extols the virtues of college is a diamond salesman whose college availed him nothing.
As far as getting the initial interview, there are people who will only call in those with a degree. However that is often just for convenience - too many applicants, this is a way to cut them down and it certainly isn’t worth spending 4 years in school for. I had 6 managers reporting directly to me and only one of them insisted on a degree. The other 5 couldn’t care less.
There are vocational schools that are more targeted to giving you a skill and finding you a job than colleges which demand that you load up on all kinds of useless knowledge. I guarantee no interviewer will test your interpretation of Shakespeare or see how well you run the track. If you are told you need to be well-rounded, learn Novi in addition to Gemora, or Ramban on Chumash, etc.
15. Comment from Anonymous
Time November 10, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Orthowatch: The Ribbono Shel Oilam supports the kollel families and in His abundant chesed gives those college attending baalei batim the opportunity to participate in the mitzva. He also provides baalei batim themselves with their parnassa. College isn’t part of the equation. To think otherwise is just so much more kochi v’otzem yadi…
16. Comment from glatekup
Time November 10, 2009 at 11:55 AM
i would like to write of my own experience in high school and i also believe that most kids my age growing up in high school have similar feelings.we had english in high school from grades 9-11 and i can say that it was a total waste of time. we had teachers who were mostly goyim and tried teaching us alot of garbage. we learned shakespear, mark twain etc. these books were written by goyim for goyim and they will not benefit anyone to aqcuire a parnossa in the future. there are two reasons why the yeshivos are adamant to have an english curriculum. the first being to get a rounded education and in my opinion, anyone needing a college degree can get a GED in the matter of a few weeks so what is the point of killing 3-4 years of time when we were young and able to learn more limudei kodesh. the second reason that the yeshivos and parents are adamant to get a diploma is not so much for the education but because they are saying that kids cannot sit and learn a whole day gemorrah. i have an idea, why not learn lighter limudim like navi, halacha and biyur tefilla which do not demand so much brainpower and like this our children will get a rounder education in limudei kodesh? it is inexcusable that american children do not understand what they daven or have limited idios in halacha in navi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! please respond.
17. Comment from MASTER EDUCATOR
Time November 10, 2009 at 12:05 PM
A definetion of “Secular Studies’ is in order:
Do you want your child’s teacher/morah/rebbe to be leading a classroom WITHOUT the knowledge of
1. Elements of Teaching
2. Behavior Management
3. Multiple Intelligences
4. Motivational Skills
5. How to teach reading/kiriah
6. Individualized Instruction
7. Signs of Learning Difficulties
8. Gifted Learners
9. Benefits of Play
10. Signs of Mental Disorders
11. etc…… Are these subjects SECULAR STUDIES? What about in depth knowledge of nutrition, recreational and physical education, brain power and how to get children to use their cognitive abilities?
BTW do not send me an accountant, lawyer, doctor, plumber, contractor, therapist, nurse…who learned online (if at all??).
18. Comment from sg
Time November 10, 2009 at 12:11 PM
I don’t know the author of this article, but he and others who quoted the Rema YD 246:4 as a source for prohibition of secular studies has woefully misunderstood the context. The Rema is not talking about secular studies at all. He is clearly talking about Ruchnius studies such as Kabala, Medrash and Hashkafa. Studies which contain neither lamdus of Mitzvos or Halacha L’maaseh. The outright prohibition on “Sifre Minim” is talking about works that distort the Torah such as early Christian (at that time Jewish) writings that were eventually incorporated into sections of the New testament. Also the works of the Karaites. I assume the Gr”a would have also included some of the early Chasidic writings. The Rema is paraphrasing the Rambam who explicitly writes that these other areas of Torah that involve philosophical thought, speculation and deep understanding are best left until one has a solid foundation in knowing and understanding the practical area of Torah, Shmiras haMitzvos L’maaseh. That is why the Rema permitted one to learn these other areas to a minor extent. Our tradition follows these guidelines. We concentrate on Tanach, Mishna, Gemora, Shulachan Aruch from elementary school through Bais Medrash. We don’t have entire (4 hour) Sedorim in Medrash, Zohar or Mesilas Yeshorim. Perhaps we officially spend 1/2 hour a day on these other studies, or study them as references in the course of regular studies. As for secular studies: if it is for parnasa, it is no different than becoming an apprentice in a blacksmith’s shop. The Rambam went to medical school, the best one in Morroco. He finished his studies there even though the professor was an anti-Semite (the Ramban also was a medical doctor). As someone else mentioned, The Rambam holds that Maaseh Bereshis is physical science. He includes Maaseh Bereshis (science) as one of the pursuits to be deferred exactly as we find in the Rema. It is very clear that the Rambam holds that a mature scholar who knows nothing about science is necessarily missing a complete understanding of Torah as well. As for Reb Elchonon and Reb Baruch Ber. Either it’s not true that they quoted this Rema, or they used the reference K’lacher Yad. V’DUK
19. Comment from Yosef
Time November 10, 2009 at 12:28 PM
The Rabbonim in Eretz Yisroel felt that in order to combat the Zionist / Secularist influence, a strong line of demarcation needs to be made between “us and them” and therefore no secular studies – or secular activities, such as soccer – be allowed. Call it a “hora’as shaah” if you like. Or better, “hora’a’s makom.” For instance, Rav Shach ZT’L permitted a school in Eretz Yisroel that has secular studies on the High School level for American immigrant families only. The resistance to secularism in Israel is a declaration that Eretz Yisroel’s social milieu demands unique and unorthodox methods to combat it.
If no one claims it is a Mitzva to get an advanced degree, then HOW MUCH secular studies IS a Mitzvah (or how much is “important”) according to MO? And when you say everyone does what is “best” for him, you are not answering the question, because what is “best” for me depends on what my goals are. The higher a goal I can reach the “better” it is for me. But the question is, what is the higher goal? How do we define our goals? If I can learn all day or become a professor, how am I supposed to know what’s best for me? Without MO, it’s obvious. Becoming a professor is not the first choice. We know the criteria there. What is the criteria according to MO?
And if obtaining an advanced degree is not a Mitzvah, why are the MO rabbis encouraging it instead of encouraging more learning, which is a Mitzvah? If people who only have HS education are also correct then why would rabbis recommend forgoing Torah learning for more advanced degrees if I am already doing correctly?
20. Comment from Yosef
Time November 10, 2009 at 12:29 PM
Nobody disagrees that it is an advantage to know everything about everything. The issue is that there is a bigger advantage to knowing Torah than there is anthropology, for instance, and most of everything as well. And therefore we have to prioritize our life and learn Torah.
It is a mistake to think that traditional Orthodoxy is “afraid” of knowledge. Although this is the MO party-line, and is taught in many MO schools, it is simply a misrepresentation of the facts. The issue isn’t that anyone is scared. The issue is we have only a certain amount of time on this world and learning Torah is the biggest Mitzvah there is, more valuable than physics, the “advantages” of knowing about quantum non-locality notwithstanding. And there is always the fact that the Halachah prefers those who do nothing but learn all day, which sets a goal for all those who are capable of doing it.
21. Comment from Yosef
Time November 10, 2009 at 12:32 PM
Hagoen HaRav Elya Svei ZT’L said:
“It says further, in Targum Yonoson, that one should not be a false witness. I want to stop here. In public life here in Brooklyn, there is false testimony. We have merited, through blood and sweat and with the Almighty’s help, to establish large Yeshivos for the boys and Bais Yaakov for the girls. And these schools produced students of whom all can be proud. But then someone comes and says that they are still incomplete. When the boys go out of the Yeshiva, they are still not finished — they still need more studies: they still have to go to “Touro College” to be well-rounded. That is the biggest false testimony against the Torah. The boys do not need such “completeness”.
One is not allowed to be friends with them! One is not allowed to be partners with them! What will be with our children? From where will our great Torah leaders come? From Touro College they will not come! And mothers of Gedolei Torah will also not come from Touro College, because the Gemorrah says that to merit children who will become Gedolei Yisroel, one has to have modesty. And modesty cannot be acquired in Touro College!”
22. Comment from David R.
Time November 10, 2009 at 1:27 PM
I found this write-up very inspiring and appreciate it being posted here.
It gave me a lot of “food for thought.”
23. Comment from Bruce
Time November 10, 2009 at 1:28 PM
You forgot to mention that Rav Schwab quotes in the maayan Beis HaShoeva the opinion of Rav Leizer Yudel Finkel ZT”L of the Mir who says that to assur clooge is a gezeira sheian rov hatzibur yecholim laamod bo.
In addition the quote from Reb Elya ZT”L is not accurate as is well known Rav Elya ZT”L allowed secular subjects to be taught in Lakewood ask Rabbi Slomowitz.
Most American HS bochurim cannot handle a full day of learning.
The top yeshivos Riverdale Philadelphia LB Telz Chicago all have a secular programs.
The ones that don`t are usualy second tier.
24. Comment from Volozhin
Time November 10, 2009 at 2:27 PM
Science, physics, maths, economics, botany, anatomy, astronomy are all TORAH subjects, when taught properly. (In a torah world, there is no such thing as CHOL)
Yosef, you should be recommending an innovative program to prepare Bnei Torah to teach the above subjects and the newest subject of ‘Project Witness - history of the Holocaust**’ to our holy high school boys (and girls??).
** Some Gedolim have lamented the lack of knowledge of our high school bochurim about WW2/holocaust studies, questioning the lack of teachers available to properly give over the information.
#4 touched on a point of ‘Kiddush Hashem’-where and how to assess that component is essential?
25. Comment from Yosef
Time November 10, 2009 at 2:38 PM
To those questioning the accuracy of the Rama or Rav Boruch Ber ZT’L or Rav Elchonon ZT’L: The mekoros are clearly provided for all to read in the article above. Stop by the Beis Medrash and read the Rama 246:4, the Birkas Shmuel Kiddushin #27 p. 42, and the Kovetz Shiurim II:47. It is as the article writes.
26. Comment from Yosef
Time November 10, 2009 at 2:41 PM
#8 (who is another poster than I): I agree with you that from the Torah you can learn math and the natural sciences. Your other points have already been addressed or are no stira.
27. Comment from To All
Time November 10, 2009 at 2:52 PM
I wonder how many of you that are bashing the author of this article have been to college? I hope few. The spelling of many of the respondents is atrocious! Please have some pride in your writing if you are going to espouse secular education!
I agree with #14. I work for a very large corporation. We don’t look for people with degree’s. We evaluate the person based upon their resume. Period. But I can tell you if it includes the spelling errors I see some of these writters continue to make it goes straight in the trash.
28. Comment from Jothar
Time November 10, 2009 at 3:10 PM
So this is the famous Joseph. Hail and well-met!
29. Comment from Jothar
Time November 10, 2009 at 3:24 PM
Don’t your rabbeim in baltimore allow college?
30. Comment from Anonymous
Time November 10, 2009 at 4:06 PM
KEEP them ignorant…
31. Comment from Menachem
Time November 10, 2009 at 4:30 PM
I learned in a shiur with someone for 20 years. He has PhD in Physics and is a major talmid chochom. There are insights he brought to our learning that would have been impossible without his knowledge of science.
Great Rabbis consult with him all the time in just this type of understanding in THEIR learning.
32. Comment from Anonymous
Time November 10, 2009 at 4:38 PM
“There are many Jewish schools where you don’t have to worry about apikorsis, led by YU and Touro.”
First of all that is only two schools. Even with respect to those two schools it is not accurate. YU has apikorsis classes. Even their own roshei yeshivah acknowledge that.
33. Comment from Rav Chaim
Time November 10, 2009 at 5:14 PM
To #21
Your quote is provocative and inflamatory against one of the holiest, yes, holiest of institutions in the frum community, Touro College. The women students in Touro are studying in a very frum environment to enable them to support their husbands who are learning. The men who come to Touro would not be sitting and learning all day…….they would be going to a college with mixed classes, men, women, Jews and non-Jews. The highest form of flattery is imitation and there are so many programs which have tried to imitate Touro, like Raizel Rite, Bulka, Sara Schenirer. The Rosh Yeshiva, Z’l was addressing a different issue and you make it sound like Touro isn’t a great Kiddush Hashem. It really is, and we need a Touro in Williamsburg and Lakewood to prevent the creation of a “Lost Generation”. I am not addressing the Halachic or Hashkafa issues, just the realities on the ground. The frum community should be supportive of Touro in every way.
34. Comment from Yosef
Time November 10, 2009 at 6:06 PM
Jothar, I’m not the R’ from Baltimore you assumed. 
35. Comment from glatekup
Time November 10, 2009 at 6:49 PM
To bruce: “the ones who don’t talk english are usually second tier”. You obviously don’t know what you are talking about. What about stamford, lakewood mesivta, rabbi slomowitz to name a few. These are from the best yeshivos around. Even torah temima in lakewood does not have an english program. These boys are not missing anything. When they will need to go to college or to get a job, they will get a GED in a matter of a few weeks. Look at israeli boys who never had secular subjects in high school. They are very well rounded and when they do go out to train for jobs they are getting the highest scores. The teachers are actually very impressed with their yidios in secular subjects. Learning torah gives us a very well rounded education.
36. Comment from matis
Time November 10, 2009 at 6:54 PM
yw - some poskim say that lovod hatorah(one of the issurim of learning chol intrinsically, although permitted for parnosa), so yes, for a woman to desire a curriculum of secular studies ‘lishmah’ would be assur.
Same with men.
ortho - YU does have books full of apikorsus. ‘torah umada’ is also, in itself, apikorsus.
Just because something could be doen doesnt mean it should be.
Individual maysos do not change mesoirah or halacha. These things tend to get twisted and a biased perspective comes out - having a high school diploma is the prefered method that our gedolei yisroel encouraged(with the exception of rav ahron)
37. Comment from why?
Time November 10, 2009 at 8:04 PM
this article and view point is so extreme… We are supposed to be an ohr le goyim, instead the author and some respondents advocate complete withdrawal, isolation, chauvinism and poverty. We have given the world so much: medicine, philosophy, literature, economics, MONOTHEISM. Our greatest religious scholars were masters in secular subjects as well and were looked up to by both Jews and Non-Jews: Rambam, Sforno, Abarbanel, Vilna GAon. Now we have a thousand rebbes of whom 95% of Jews and 100% of non-Jews have not heard and will never hear.
A famous saying is that “In Biblical days prophets were astir while the world was asleep, today the world is astir while synagogues are busy with trivialities.”
38. Comment from matis
Time November 10, 2009 at 8:25 PM
I find it fascinating that a poster named ‘volozhin’ would say such things.
The Netziv, who bore that title pretty well, closed his yeshiva rather than begin a curriculum of secular studies therein.
Too bad he didn’t think math and physics were totah - I guess this poster knows more about the torah world than he did.
As an aside, a great example of how one can know secular studies indirectly without curriculum based study, is the chazon ish. Never stepping foot in a classroom or high school, the Chazon Ish showed remarkable knowledge of astronomy in his famous international date line teshuvah.
You can learn the type of mathematics needed for eruvin or sukkah from the same rebbe who teaches gemora - mah she ain kein, literature, or other things the ’secular knowledge for its own sake’ velt keep saying is important.
I don’t think anyone argued(or would have the stupidity to argue) with the need to teach jewish history - rabbi avigdor miller zt’l did so all the time. The mussar haskel, and the appreciation for being the am segulah that is to be gained from such study is very valuable - especially the holocaust. As rav yonason eyebeshutz famously said, the fact that the Jewish people are still around after so many years and hardships is a greater nais than krias yam suf.
But of course, that has no bearing on college - there are plenty of books to be read and rabbonim to teach without touro and the like.
Touro certainly fills a niche in klal yisroel - it’s far better than going to a goyishe college, but this is a bedieved scenario and subject to a machlokes haposkim.
If there is a yesh al ma lismoch - let it be, but don’t turn it into something it’s not.
39. Comment from matis
Time November 10, 2009 at 8:36 PM
Menachem, it still does not equal the amount of kedushah that comes from a torah-only lifestyle. Every day he spent learning physics he missed out on torah - end of story.
Plus, who knows? maybe this was only because your shiur did not plumb the depths of the sugya as deep as others do - maybe you would have had the same or better conclusion if you learned during the time this guy was studying physics - also, the ends never justifies the means; maybe this guy’s chiddushim would have been blasted apart if he had been in the presence of a gadol batorah, how can we know? suppose a man with a PhD in christian religion would also prove that christianity is worth studying, since he may have had some insights into hilchos deos from his education - it doesnt fly.
Also, anecdotes dont prove things in torah. Torah proves things in torah. What we see is never used as evidence - you never know the whole cheshbon.
40. Comment from Yosef
Time November 10, 2009 at 11:29 PM
What do Microsoft founder Bill Gates, Oracle CEO Larry Ellison and entertainment mogul David Geffen have in common? Huge bank accounts and no student loans. These industry leaders are some of the most successful people in business and none of them has a college degree.
The belief that you need a college education to have a well-paying and rewarding job is quickly fading. A four-year degree definitely has its benefits in the business world, but it’s not the only path to a successful career.
In fact, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), eight of the 10 fastest-growing occupations through 2014 don’t require a bachelor’s degree. And these jobs, which include health technology, plumbing, firefighting and automotive repair, are less vulnerable to outsourcing. After all, if a fire breaks out, you need the fire department to be a few blocks away, not halfway around the world.
While the educational requirements for many good jobs have risen, many occupations still don’t require a four-year degree. Several of these positions require vocational training or an associate degree. All of them require some on-the-job training or an apprenticeship.
Here are 25 of the top-paying jobs that don’t require a four-year degree and their average salaries, based on data from the BLS and CBSalary.com.
1. Air traffic controller: $102,030
2. Funeral director: $79,517
3. Operations manager: $77,839
4. Industrial production manager: $73,000
5. Transportation manager: $72,662
6. Storage and distribution manager: $69,898
7. Computer technical support specialist: $67,689
8. Gaming manager: $64,880
9. First-line supervisor/manager of police and detective: $64,430
10. Nuclear power reactor operator: $64,090
11. Computer specialist: $59,480
12. First-line, non-retail supervisors/manager: $59,300
13. Nuclear technician: $59,200
14. First-line supervisor/manager of fire fighting and prevention worker: $58,920
15. Real estate broker: $58,720
16. Elevator installer and repairer: $58,710
17. Sales representative, wholesale and manufacturing, technical and scientific products: $58,580
18. Dental hygienist: $59,790
19. Radiation therapist: $57,700
20. Nuclear medicine technologist: $56,450
21. Power plant distributor and dispatcher: $57,330
22. Fashion designer: $55,840
23. Ship engineer: $54,950
24. Detective and criminal investigator: $53,990
25. Commercial pilot: $53,870
For some of these occupations, the highest earners in the field make a significantly higher amount than the national average. For example, the top funeral directors can make $225,500. Some non-retail sales representatives can earn as much as $114,540, nearly double the national average. Operations managers, who already rank highly on the list, can make $132,537. As with any occupations, location factors heavily into how much you earn. (For example, major metropolitan areas will probably pay more than smaller towns.)
“The thing to keep in mind is that there are something like 50 million jobs out there that don’t require a bachelor’s degree and pay upwards of $40,000 a year,” says Harlow Unger, author of “But What If I Don’t Want to Go to College? A Guide to Success Through Alternative Education.”
He goes on to say that according to the U.S. Department of Labor, by 2010, almost two-thirds of all projected job openings will require only on-the-job training.
So while a college degree was de rigueur for the Baby Boom generation, that’s not necessarily the case now. In today’s highly technical and service-related market, workers are judged more on their skills than their sheepskins.
[Anthony Balderrama is a writer and blogger for CareerBuilder.com. He researches and writes about job search strategy, career management, hiring trends and workplace issues.]
41. Comment from matis
Time November 10, 2009 at 11:29 PM
An ohr legoyim means ohr - ain oro ela torah my friend - that’s our Ohr.
This whole problem of yours tems from a goyishe perspective - the author was talking about REAL Ohr. We spread our Ohr, our torah, through being torah Jews; not through being doctors oi keyotze boi.
If Jews brought medicine to the world - big deal. That’s not our kovod(it’s not even our bechira - we have no free will to heal people!) - learning is. Learning is the yesod of everything - you belittle it.
Hashem runs the world. The author is not suggesting poverty, but rather living without luxurious - big difference. There’s no mitzvah to be a doctor, to be welathy, to know physics, or to be a philosopher(incidentally, it’s also an isser yehereg velo yaavor to learn apikorsus which a lot of philosophy is, but i guess we n eed to be an Ohr! what will the goyim think when they see us doing what G-d told us to do!)
Isolationism?
Please. JUst quit the tired, benoni-beshita party line of modern orthodoxy - face facts. Take a look at one of your ‘modern’ boys on the street - save for a yarmulkah he looks like a total shaigetz!
We’re not goyim. Goyishe stuff is tumah - bad for our neshomos. We care more about following g-d’s commandmnets and living like good torah Jews than doing kiruv with goyim based on anti-torah suppositions of the greatness of secular subjects.
Goyim have all sorts of crazy standards of normalcy - should we allow mixed affairs, since goyim would think thats so weird that we dont?
Maybe we should not wear yarmulkahs, since that’s so old-fashioned?
Maybe our women should wear pants and t-shirts since, ew, you’re so repressed with that stuffy outfit!
There’s a line that cannot be crossed - that line is torah hashkafa and halacha. We’re not going to compromise one iota of emes for goyishe nonsense - you want to follow the goyim? Be a real light? guide them into gashmius with your amazing knowledge of medicine while they believe apikorsus and run around being mezaneh?
Reb Moshe writes about why our gedolim were experts in secular fields - it’s keday to read the teshuvos; check it out in the yad moshe index - it’s not what you think it is.
Oh well, I guess reb moshe was also ‘isolated’.
42. Comment from Reality Check
Time November 10, 2009 at 11:52 PM
Several of these positions require vocational training or an associate degree. All of them require some on-the-job training or an apprenticeship.
IOWs Vocational training/Associate Degree and Apprenticeship is NOT CALLED COLLEGE.
43. Comment from Yosef
Time November 11, 2009 at 6:02 AM
Nobody disagrees with vocational training, on-the-job training or an apprenticeship. They certainly are not college.
44. Comment from MAtis #42
Time November 11, 2009 at 6:58 AM
Everything you listed is complete nonsense. Your “Black and white” view of things shows your lack of ahavas yisroel for anyone different than you.
“Look at your modern boys, they look lie a shaigetz.”
What is that? What does a shaigetz look like? How about a Jew? What about judging favorably and not based on your preconceived notions, is that halacha or optional in your book? Do you think Yidden dressed in Shtreimels in Yerushalaim 3,000 years ago? How come we don’t dress like that now? Your idea that things don’t change is utter nonsense.
And if you are brave enough to go on the INTERNET and insult goyim, modern orthodox jews and everypne who differs from you- please make sure you refrain from ANY public assistance, tzedaka from those sources, etc. Check how many memebers of your community are on Medicaid and living off those who you insult. Is that lifestyle your ohr legoyim? Utter disrespect and fleecing the system? Then say thank you and do some tshuva.
45. Comment from MAtis #42
Time November 11, 2009 at 7:09 AM
oh, one more thing. Don’t quote Rav Moshe, he loved all Jews and respected others. You have nothing but comtempt and not even tolerance for anyone unlike yourself.
46. Comment from Yosef
Time November 11, 2009 at 8:14 AM
Learning a parnassa is a mitzva, as the article cleary states. College is not needed for this, as even an honest goy will acknowledge. (As an aside, “Kach hi darkah shel torah - pas b’melach tochal etc.” - Bread, salt and water - if you have that, you have parnasah.)
#9, What Reb Moshe and Reb Ahron said is very much relevant today. #33, Rav Elya ZT’L held that position and it is Toras Moshe. The Rosh Yeshiva was addressing this very issue. No idea what you are referring to by a “different” issue.
47. Comment from TDK
Time November 11, 2009 at 9:15 AM
One of the main reasons levelled against learning science is bitul torah. Since every moment you learn science you can’t learn torah, you are mevatel the aseh of talmud torah.
I would therefore suggest that all bloggers who are against college education should get off the internet and start learning.
Moreover, there might be a very big difference between previous generations and now. In previous generations, only the most intellegent and studious people went to college. Gedolim therefore felt that if our brightest minds were to go to college, they would be lost for the Torah world and Klal Yisrael. However, today that’s not the case anymore. People who would want to go to college, will not necessarily go back to the yeshive world if they wouldn’t go to college.
48. Comment from Yosef
Time November 11, 2009 at 10:15 AM
#47, The byline originally posted here was an error. I am uncertain why it was originally posted as such, but it seems to have been corrected. In any event, I hadn’t requested the original byline and am uncertain as to the nature of its origin.
49. Comment from Reality Check
Time November 11, 2009 at 10:52 AM
#44 Yosef, quite evident that you have never attended any vocational training clases which can include parts of bitual & bizayon torah/apprikus that you are adamently against.
50. Comment from Yerachmiel Lopin
Time November 11, 2009 at 12:26 PM
I like the orientation to on the job training. Why waste time on anatomy. Go straight to surgery. It is not like doing milah or shechitah where you should not even start until you know the dinim. Or learn law by clerking as was once the practice. Law is not like dayanus whch you cant just learn on the job. Yes, lets also learn airplane repair on the job.
Its fine by me if you say no to secular learning and accept the costs and not ask others (including your wives) to support you. But don’t insist you can get there without some prep. And yes Bill Gates dropped out of college, but he was writing code as a teenager for more hours a day than most bochurim learn. If he was driven to become a talmid chochom and succeeded without going to yeshiva would you say that was an argument for not having yeshivos?
51. Comment from matis
Time November 11, 2009 at 12:47 PM
judging others favorably does not mean everyone is correct no matter what because they are jewish.
I was insulting modern orthodox ideology, which was condemned by our gedolei yisroel for generations - no chiddush of my own.
Of course shtreimels and the like are not 3,000 years old - who cares? I never said or implied that, but it’s important to look like a Jew - my point was that modern orthodx children are indoctrinated to look almost exactly like their goyishe counterparts, save for a yarmulkah - i dont think anyone can argue with that.
I also have no contempt for these people - i am simply saying they are wrong - people can be wrong, but i guess we should just not care about kovod shomayim, i guess it’s just a hefkervelt where if you make something into a shita, have a shul, or whatever, you’re 100% kosher and no one can say you’re in violation of torah and mesorah.
If by ‘not like me’ you mean following mesorah, than yes, you’re right, they’re all wrong - it’s mnly the yatzer hora for ‘multicuturalism’ and ‘open-mindedness’ without a stitch of torah to back it up that convinces you that ‘everyone is right’.
My issue, or rather, my presentation of the gedolims’ issue with modern orthodoxy, is not the same, lehavdil, as let’s say, yemenite jews, chassidim, sefardim, or any other legitimate kehillah that is ‘not like me’. - there are many valid mesoras in klal yisroel which we are obligated to respect - modern orthodoxy is not one of them.(of course, respecting members of that ideology is a different story - that we must do, but I am talking about respecting the ideology itself, which is anti-torah, and hence should not be respected)
You can have ahavas yisroel and still say people are wrong - I know this is the distorted version of ahavas yisroel - love every jews’ opinion and every jews’ ideoology, and if you chas veshalom say they’re anti-torah, oh boy, no you have sinas chinam!
of course, this lacks a mekor - it’s really just more of an excuse to give honor to people like hertzl and ben gurion, spiritual murders of jews, who they put up on the walls of their schools - they have to find something to say when someone intellectually honest asks ‘rebbe, why is there a man without a yarmulkah who didn’t believe in g-d on our yeshiva’s walls?’ - and this is it. love everything every jew says and thinks no matter what, unless of course, he’s against modern orthodoxy.
52. Comment from matis
Time November 11, 2009 at 12:49 PM
It’s a tremendous affront to kovod hatorah to suggest that we change something in our mesorah to fit the goyim or their perspective of normalcy or right and wrong - to say so is to say our torah is inadequate, chas veshalom.
It’s certainly kedai for all these people who were influenced by these baseless beliefs to just read kovetz maamarim from reb elchonon wasserman, along with other works that represent the hashkafa of our leading gedolei yisroel.
53. Comment from Matis
Time November 11, 2009 at 1:09 PM
I believe there is a mitzvah of “saving a life.” I fulfilled that today in the operating room. Also, kiddush HAshem, as well. Is that a mitzvah in your book? What did you do today?
And a quick question, if all the goyim started wearing bekishes and shtreimels, would we have to wear jeans and T-shirts just to look different?
54. Comment from PL
Time November 11, 2009 at 1:12 PM
Because “Bill Gates made a fortune without college, therefore—” you can to?
There are brilliant people out there who make very good livings without college educations, but is every high school student one of them?
Saying that one can learn all the math and science from the Gemara doesn’t fly. That math and science is from the Greeks, and while math may remain constant, science does not.
And what exactly is “Moreh Nevuchim”? It was written by the Rambam for the select few individuals who studied Aristotelian philosophy as well as Torah and were confused.
In this day and age, education is so readily available it becomes expected, if not mandatory. If one is threatened by what exposure will do to their frumkeit, fine, remove yourself from it. But don’t go around preaching that your chaver is not as frum as you if their neshama is not threatened.
I found that college reinforced my frumkeit. For my family, my grandfather decided that sending his son to college was doing his hishtadlus in teaching his son a profession.
I find this whole topic condescending to our fellow Jews. The Eibishter wants us to love one another, not point fingers.
55. Comment from Orthowatch.blogspot.com
Time November 11, 2009 at 1:28 PM
matis, you obviously have no idea what MO is. Go into the YU Beis Medrash one night, look at the hasmaddah taking place, and then tell me it’s anti-Torah.
56. Comment from 55
Time November 11, 2009 at 2:10 PM
55 should be FOR MAtis, not from
57. Comment from Ben Torah
Time November 11, 2009 at 3:46 PM
I am shocked to read something like this on Matzav.com
The ideas presented here including those of R” Elchonon and R’ Boruch ber have been twisted out of context.
Moreover
WE ARE LYING TO OURSELVES
1. secular studies are taught in our yeshivos and seminaries BECAUSE WE NEED THEM TO LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY AND MAKE PARNASA no linger can one make a living as a shoemaker or store keeper
2. EVEN BMG in LAKEWOOD has many programs around it educating the men and women of lakewood in order to make parnosa. witness the full classrooms of touro and brooklyn coleege etc…..
3. IT is a mitzvah to be mefarnes our families. Baruch hashem we no lnonger have to sacrifice our yiddishkeit or learning to get an education…..
4. Rav Schwab ZT”L himself wrote a famous pamphlet called Eilu Veilu explaining his own shitah which differed from that of R elochonon and and RBB.
5. all of the gedolim’s discussion was regading those who are learning HOWEVER wthose who are not or cannot its a different ball game
DO WE PREFER THEM ON WELFARE SCAMMING THE GOVERNMENT? IN JAIL?
6. SEE HOW GREAT A KIDDUSH HASHEM IS MADE BY BNEI TORAH WHO ARE DOCTORS LAWYERS ACCOUNTANTS AND BUSINESSMAN EVERY DAY IN THE WORLD. HOW MUCH CHESED THEY DO HOW BADLY WE IN OUR OWN COMMUNITY NEED THEM
SILLINESS!
58. Comment from Yosef
Time November 11, 2009 at 5:13 PM
#59: The ideas presented here including those of Reb Elchonon and Reb Boruch Ber are direct quotations from the Birkas Shmuel (Kiddushin #27 p. 42) and the Kovetz Shiurim II:47. Go to the Beis Medrash and look it up. It is in black and white, and you can see it with your own eyes.
59. Comment from Anonymous
Time November 11, 2009 at 8:39 PM
response to 41
Your attempt to make it seem like a college education is unneccasary for most frum families to have an adequate parnossah is dishonest and misleading. How about first starting with an honest account of what it costs to live a frum lifestyle, in a frum community with say between 4 and 8 children. None of those jobs you cite would come close to providing enough money to cover basic expenses, such as yeshiva tuition, with the exception of the first one, and then only if the both spouses are working. Unfortunately I had people in the 1980s in Baltimore who used to preach the same sheker. For instance,you could become a diamond dealer, or a UPS driver they said. It is time to stop this nonsense and to stop putting stumbling blocks in front of blind, gullible, and impressionable young people. The methods of making parnossah have totally changed since the time of Reb Elchonon and the Bircas Shmuel. The burden of parnossah has also changed in that basic expenses such as health insurance did not exist back then. You can eat as much salt and water as you want but it will still cost you a fortune to live in a frum neighborhood and send your kids to yeshiva. By the way, if you only feed your kids bread, salt and water, you should and will be arrested for child abuse.
60. Comment from Chaim
Time November 11, 2009 at 11:06 PM
#61 - What is the mekor for the narishkeit and sheker you are shpritzing? The other side brought quite a few supporting mekoros.
61. Comment from Chaim
Time November 12, 2009 at 4:10 PM
There was some renumbering above. My (what is now) #60 was directed to (what is now) #59. (It seems #58 was directed to #57.)
62. Comment from matis
Time November 14, 2009 at 7:57 PM
to the other ‘matis’ - you did a kiddush hashem.
The rambam calls one who learns all day a ‘kiddush hashem’ too.
Chazal say ‘gadol limud hatorah yoser mehatzalas nefashos’ and that was talking about saving yiddishe life.
We cannot have gayva with our mitzvos - learning is better than saving lives; even if you felt better about what you did in the emergency room. My high school rebbe used to say pshat in the gemora ‘tov sheberofim legehinnom’ means that they have gayva and think they’re the ones saving lives(not implying you think that way, but it sure does sound like it) - we’re not supposed to take credit for these things or make them into bigger inyonim than what they are. Your statement could very well be apikorsus as the mishnah berurah defines it as being anything against daas torah - daas torah is that learning is better than saving lives; you seem to say it’s not, so that means you’re disagreeing with daas torah.
orthowatch - there’s plenty of good guys in YU - i know one of them who davens in my neighborhood. That still does not excuse the wanton anti-torah hashkafos and apikorsus of some of the faculty and students, nor does it negate or justify the possession and teaching of apikorsus on an institutionalized level - this makes it an anti-torah establishment, regardless of what else goes on there - ‘taam k’ikar’ i think is an apt moshol here.
I have heard of such a different side to YU. Some rebbeim and bochurim, rabbi reichman, rav kahn, rav hershel shachter, are fine respectable talmidei chachamim - it’s the ones with the ‘torah umada’ hashkafa im talking about; the ones with the feminist ideas, evolution, the toleration of toeva clubs, the institutionalized teaching of gemora to girls since they’re smart enough to learn chemistry(an affront to the torah to make such comparisons) which flies smack in the face of the shulchan aruch(called by reb moshe a ‘davar pashut’- this was the only time he used such language), being agaisnt ‘daas torah’ (whatever that means) and all other sorts of apikorsus, not to mention the debasement of calling a rebbe a ‘professor of talmud’.
There’s just too much of a mixture between kodesh and chol - most people cannot handle such a thing without getting mushpah. to the bnei torah who learn there - good luck staying clean, but it’s certainly not for everyone and is not an acceptable torah institution by any standard.
learning apikorsus is an issur yehereg velo yaavor. it has become, to YU(or if you prefer ‘certain elements of YU’), a mitzvah deoraysoh.
The learning schedule is not on par with mainstream yeshivos. Lakewood learns far more than they do, and they dont have silly policies against giving semicha to anyone who doesn’t learn limudei chol - it’s an anti-torah policy that if someone doesn’t want to learn secular studies they cannot be in yeshiva.
In many places(like mir and lakewood) it’s fakert, you can’t be in yehsiva if you are learning secular studies! now we see that daas torah is hefech daas baalei batim!
63. Comment from Yosef
Time November 15, 2009 at 2:30 AM
Additionally, none of this has to do with college. Plenty of people get jobs without college, many communities live like that, and they do just fine. It does not say “im ain ‘Lexus’ ain Torah”. The idea that if you dont go to college you will not have Kemach is obviously a lie.
64. Comment from Chaim
Time November 19, 2009 at 12:54 AM
It is essential to recognize the advantages of the educational and theological philosophy of Rabbi Shamson Rafael Hirsch who
initiated Torah Im Derekh Eretz. In the United States, the philosophy of YU—Torah U Maddah
has gained acceptance in most of the Orthodox world. (Exclusive Torah study is NOT appropriate for the masses. Only those who are serious and able to devote themselves to such erudition and piety are entitled to embark on such a path.)
I would also add that college is not for everyone. But those who would benefit from college should definitely attend—preferably in an institution where immorality
and apikorsus are not encountered.
The enlightened views of the late
Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik enhance our understanding of the subject significantly.
65. Comment from Yosef
Time November 20, 2009 at 2:42 PM
#64
Rav Schwab says “ailu v’ailu divrei elokim chayim” - that there are those who hold that learning all day is best for the most amount of people, and others - like where he comes from - that Torah Im Derech Eretz is the ideal. He says both are legitimate.
However, elsewhere he questions what Rav Shimshon Raphael Hirsch would say is the best approach today. He points out that when Rav SRH supported TIDE it was in a time when the rest of the world was learning all day. In a world with a powerful, robust and healthy Torah-only majority, Rav SRH felt comfortable creating a TIDE community as well, to deal with needs that the Torah Only camp could not. But where the Torah-Only world itself needs to be strengthened, would Rav Hirsch stress TIDE?
He doesn’t answer that question.
But Rav Hirsch wasn’t talking about working vs. learning. He was talking about whether it is useful to have secular knowledge, and if so, how much, and why. Working vs. learning is a totally different issue, though related.
And there are clear statements in the Chazal, Rambam and Shulchan Aruch that nobody disagrees with, including Rav Hirsch or Rav Schwab, that learning all day is superior to working.
Even Mordechai, who had to close his Gemora to save Klall Yisroel during the Purim episode, the Gemora says went down in his level because he was busy saving Klall Yisroel instead of learning!!!
This does not mean that one should learn when Klal Yisroel is in danger. But rather, it would have been a big Zechus for Mordechai if Hashem would have chosen a different way to foil Haman’s plan, one that did not involve him having to close his Gemora for a while. But because of some imperfection in Mordechai, Hashem did not allow him to be Zocheh to learning all day as he wanted, but rather “forced” Mordechai to go out and save the world. It could have been a lot worse - Hashem could have forced Mordechai to close the Gemora and NOT save the world. But it could have been better. Mordechai could have been able to learn peacefully and not been recruited to save the world.
So if even Mordechai went down in madreigah because of having to learn less temporarily in order to save all of Klall Yisroel, imagine how much more learning all day is worth as opposed to spending your entire life selling cell phones, or practicing law…
66. Comment from Yosef
Time November 20, 2009 at 2:49 PM
Rav Shimon Schwab ZT’L, the Rav of the Torah Im Derech Eretz kehilla, also said (quoted from Selected Essays pp.160-162):
“However, in addition to the legitimate shitos we have discussed, there is yet another, more modern version in vogue called “Torah Umaada”. Apparently this is identical with Torah Im Derech Eretz, especially since both claim a belief in the priority of Torah over maada. Both seems exactly alike, but like two left gloves which cannot be worn together, they don’t fit! . . .
“Rav Hirsch ZT’L has inscribed two emblems on his banner. One is Torah Im Derech Eretz and the other is the so-called “Austritt”, which means severance, or total and non-recognition of any type of institutionalized heresy, “minus” or apikursus. This is also a resolution not to contribute, participate in, or support any cause which accords validity to the disbelief in Hashem or to the denial of the authenticity of Torah shebiksav or Torah shebaal peh. In other words, “Austritt” states that the Torah is our sovereign ruler, and it makes us independent of all those who deny its Divine origin…
“To summarize, Torah im derech eretz without Austritt is considered treif l’chol hadeios! Even if you call it Torah Umaada.”
67. Comment from Yosef
Time November 20, 2009 at 2:57 PM
Some more from Rav Schwab ZT’L (Moreh Dasra of Khal Adas Yeshurun; the TIDE Kehila):
“Let me single out two examples where silence is not permitted . . . “The first item is Modern Orthodoxy . . . most of it has become stale, stagnant, and fossilized, and we could not call it modern anymore. “In the meantime, the contemporary generation has advanced and risen to higher standards, Boruch Hashem. We are witnessing the rise of a new type of American Orthodoxy. This is the Yeshiva and Bais Yaakov generation . . . This is the new generation of Bnei Torah and baalei batim who do not intend to stand still and remain satisfied with a tiny yarlmuka or a teaspoonful of Jewish knowledge…They are marching on! And so we are zocheh, Baruch Hashem, to prestigious yeshivos gedolos in America and American-born Roshei Yeshiva , rabbanim, and poskim. “Today, our youth in America is the real Modern Orthodox, if you must use this expression, and they are marching forward. Whether they belong to chassidishe, yeshivishe, or Torah im derech eretz variety, they are marching forward, step by step, to a more wakeful form of avodas hashem. . . Their greatest pride and joy and nachas consists of children who are talmidei chachamim, bnei torah and bnos Torah.”
(Selected Essays p.89)
“Shameful are the ways of the glorified am haaretz who . . . condones the aberrations which Hirsch condemned, such as religious nationalism, Orthodox-Reform collaboration and neutral Judaism. Foolish are those who sympathize with the “Department Store Academy”, where Brisk and Slobodka are offered on the first floor and Graetz and Dubnow on the second. When such a person takes Rav Hirsch’s name in vain, wielding Torah im derech eretz like a weapon against recognized Torah schools, he becomes somewhat ridiculous! “What a travesty! Rav Hirsch, who was the warrior without compromise against those who hated the Torah, has to let his memory be invoked today against those who love the Torah. . .
(ibid p. 151)
This, from the Rav of the Torah Im Derech Eretz kehilla. TIDE is not an integration into any foreign culture nor an entry in any sort of way, into the outside community. The idea there is for Jews to be literate and learned enough to present a positive impression and an effective message to the “outside world”, plus, the ability to withstand the powerful anti-Torah impressions and messages of the outside world. TIDE does not espouse sending Jewish children to outside Universities. Rav Hirsh made his own schools - he did not send his students outside of the community.
68. Comment from response to #27
Time November 21, 2009 at 10:51 PM
Before bashing writers regarding their spelling and command of the English language, learn how possesive differs in punctuation from plural (this is being written by a high school dropout - I went to a Chassidish High School, and chose to go full time Limudei Kodesh in 10th grade).
69. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 22, 2009 at 2:24 PM
Re Joseph’s comments about Hirschian TIDE, it is inaccurate to state that “everybody else was learning Torah all day.”
That is an ultra-orthodox legend.
At that time, most German Jews
were disallusioned with Judaism as practiced by the establishment which unjustifiably disparaged secular studies.
The late Rabbi Samson Rafael Hirsch understood the inadequacy of the prevailing orthodoxy and acted as a leader and educator
to safeguard and revive Torah Judaism.
Exclusive Torah study as a prescription for everybody runs contrary to
common sense and violates Halacha. (The reference to Rama Shulchan Aruch is misleading since the writer fails to read the rest of the text which posits that “Derech Eretz” must accompany Torah studies. This follows naturally from the Ethics Of The Fathers, Chapter 2, Mishnah 2 which states in the name of Rabban Gamliel the necessity to combine both Torah and Derekh Eretz.)
I would add that qualified individuals should definitely devote their lives to Torah study as their primary occupation and vocation. Everyone else, however, should acquire the skills necessary to make a living—even if it means attending college. Of course as religious Jews they must study HaShem’s holy Torah on schedule. (Koh-Vay-Ah Ee-tim)
This is a matter which has a “Dee-Nuh
Deh-Gavrah.”
That is to say that it depends on the individual whose needs and talents have to be asseessed in order to decide how to serve HaShem.
70. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 22, 2009 at 2:41 PM
Pardon misspelling above. (The word is “assessed”.) Arnold Berger
71. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 22, 2009 at 2:53 PM
Yeshivas should hire guidance counselors who have expertise in determining vocational and occupational skills.
Not everyone is suited for college.
(There was an interesting blog posted above about job opportunities available without college.)
But for those who would benefit, there is no reason not to consider college–
either for practical reasons or for cultural enrichment.
With regard to the latter, I add the caveat that one’s studies should be conducted in a wholesome milieu bereft of pernicious
influence. (Peritzus and Apikorsus must be avoided.)
Expansion of one’s educational horizons can enhance one’s appreciation of the majesty and beauty of Almighty God’s universe.
Thus, enhancement of our understanding of the “Bree-ah” actually fortifies our faith. As a result one can
laud HaShem with even more sincere conviction and enthusiasm. Praise HaShem!
72. Comment from Chaim
Time November 23, 2009 at 2:02 AM
Re: Joseph’s Commentary On Megillas Esther 10:3
#65
In my opinion, Joseph’s interpretation is inaccurate. He passes judgment on Mordechai for not gaining the unanimous support of all his brethren. (In his editorial the writer asserts that Mordechai must have had some character flaw for he was forced to close his Gemara to save Klal Yisroel.)
See Ibn Ezra’s rational commentary.
In effect, Ibn Ezra explains that one should not draw any negative conclusion about Mordechai just because he did not have everyone’s endorsement.
Elaborating on this theme, Ibn Ezra points out that it is not possible to get everyone’s approval; there will always be people who succumb to the vice of jealousy.
We learn an important lesson from Ibn Ezra—a great sage and “Rishon”.
Those who are involved in “Klal” labors should not do so for the sake of popularity; rather they should act “Leh Shaym
Shoh-Mayim.”
Mordechai sets a noble example for all those who aspire to devote themselves
to “Tsorkhay Tsee-Bur”. (May HaShem reward such selfless Tsadeekim!)
Now, I am aware of Rashi’s commentary based on BT Megilla 16b which cites dissent from some members of the Sanhedrin. But that talmudic selection supports my thesis. As Rashi says: Only a few members disagreed but most of them backed Mordechai’s actions.
It thus transpires that Mordechai had the majority of the Sanhedrin on his side.
It is indeed axiomatic: Halacha Keh Rah-Bim.
Majority rules.
Getting back to Ibn Ezra’s
commentary on the above, we must do what is right regardless of political correctness.
Therefore, instead of pandering to “Mishkov Zokhor Reh-Shah-Im”, we must oppose all such evil legislation, such as
same-gender unions which is a Toh-Ay-Veh—an abomination which Almighty God condemns.
We must demand that the so-called frum organizations like Agudas Israel, OU, Young Israel, Lakewood withhold their support from politicians who advocate Mishkov Zokhor Shmutz partnerships. HaShem Yeh-Rah-Khem. Chaim
73. Comment from Yosef
Time November 23, 2009 at 7:22 AM
Dr. Arnold Berger -
Your interpertation of TIDE disagrees with that of Hagoan HaRav Shimon Schwab ZT’L, Moreh D’asra of Khal Adas Yeshurun, the TIDE Kehila.
I’ll faster accept Rav Shimshon Raphael Hirsch’s successors’ interpretation of TIDE, than that of an internet posters (or anyone else for that matter.)
Please read the what Rav Schwab published under “These and Those” [Eilu va'Eilu], where my paraphrasing him came from, prior to responding.
74. Comment from Yosef
Time November 23, 2009 at 11:55 AM
Chaim (#72):
I paraphrased (in #65) the Gemorah’s commentary of Mordechai; I did not offer my own commentary or judgement.
Additionally, I didn’t bring up Rashi’s discussion of the Sanhedrin’s take on Mordechai; my comment focused on the Gemorah’s commentary of Mordechai’s interrupting his Limud Torah.
Now rather than your personal “thesis”, I’ll go with Chazal, Rashi, and the Meforshim.
75. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 23, 2009 at 2:55 PM
Re: Yoseph #73 & #74
Your interpretation of Rav Schwab’s writings is unreliable. My TIDE
explanation squares with Torah theology. In particular, it is predicated on Rabbi Hirsch’s writings.
You obviously do not know the subject.
Do you actually mean that Adas Yeshurun
members all sit and learn?
Rabbi Schwab never ever denigrated the importance of making a living within the framework of orthodox Judaism.
Nowadays it is clear that the Hirschian
TIDE and Torah U Madda ideals are needed more than ever–adjusted appropriately to meet the needs of different communities.
Now come on Yoseph. You did offer your own commentary and judgement regarding Mordechai’s actions. (You brought up the subject.) In comment #65 you did assert that it was because of “some imperfection in Mordechai’s character” that he had to “close” his gemara.
On the other hand, Chaim cited Chazal:
Rashi, Ibn Ezra and BT Megilla 16b to refute
your personal opinion.
The classical sources quoted by Chaim clearly vindicate Mordechai’s actions. Ibn
Ezra’s commentary offers a superb insight which illuminates the subject.
As Rashi explains (and you should study Rashi), only a minority of the Sanhedrin Justices disagreed with Mordechai.
That means–whether you like it or not–that the majority of the Supreme Court upheld and supported Mordechai’s verdict.
(It is indeed a halachic principle that we follow the majority opinion of the Sanhedrin in accordance with the principle LO SOSUR)
Thus, your advocacy of a minority opinion against Mordechai HaTzaddik is NIT
OISGEHALTEN. Your view is untenable.
Mordechai’s actions embody the highest ideals of HaShem’s Torah. LeeMud HaTorah is not just idle speculation. It calls for action. See BT Berakhot Chapter 9 63: “Ays
La-Asos”!
76. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 23, 2009 at 3:05 PM
Re: Yoseph #74
Did Rabbi Schwab ever denigrate Mordechai’s actions as you did?
Rabbi Schwab never ever spoke about “some imperfection in Mordechai’s character.” (You made that up. )
77. Comment from Response to Arnold Berger
Time November 23, 2009 at 3:58 PM
Please read my comments carefully prior to responding. There was no attribution on that point to Rav Schwab ZT’L. I quoted Rav Schwab in regards to what Rav Schwab said (quoted above) vis-a-vis the modern orthodox and how the MO twist TIDE into something it never was nor something Rav Hirsch ZT’L endorsed (the “Torah Umaada” business.)
Regarding Mordechai, check the meforshim on the Gemorah I quoted. I simply paraphrased what it said on Mordechai, without any personal commentary.
78. Comment from Yosef
Time November 23, 2009 at 4:05 PM
Since Arnold doesn’t accept “interpretation of Rav Schwab’s writings” (sic), allow me to QUOTE Hagaon HaRav Shimon Schwab directly:
“However, in addition to the legitimate shitos we have discussed, there is yet another, more modern version in vogue called “Torah Umaada”. Apparently this is identical with Torah Im Derech Eretz, especially since both claim a belief in the priority of Torah over maada. Both seems exactly alike, but like two left gloves which cannot be worn together, they don’t fit! . . .
“Rav Hirsch ZT’L has inscribed two emblems on his banner. One is Torah Im Derech Eretz and the other is the so-called “Austritt”, which means severance, or total and non-recognition of any type of institutionalized heresy, “minus” or apikursus. This is also a resolution not to contribute, participate in, or support any cause which accords validity to the disbelief in Hashem or to the denial of the authenticity of Torah shebiksav or Torah shebaal peh. In other words, “Austritt” states that the Torah is our sovereign ruler, and it makes us independent of all those who deny its Divine origin…
“To summarize, Torah im derech eretz without Austritt is considered treif l’chol hadeios! Even if you call it Torah Umaada.”
(Selected Essays pp.160-162)
“Let me single out two examples where silence is not permitted . . . “The first item is Modern Orthodoxy . . . most of it has become stale, stagnant, and fossilized, and we could not call it modern anymore. “In the meantime, the contemporary generation has advanced and risen to higher standards, Boruch Hashem. We are witnessing the rise of a new type of American Orthodoxy. This is the Yeshiva and Bais Yaakov generation . . . This is the new generation of Bnei Torah and baalei batim who do not intend to stand still and remain satisfied with a tiny yarlmuka or a teaspoonful of Jewish knowledge…They are marching on! And so we are zocheh, Baruch Hashem, to prestigious yeshivos gedolos in America and American-born Roshei Yeshiva , rabbanim, and poskim. “Today, our youth in America is the real Modern Orthodox, if you must use this expression, and they are marching forward. Whether they belong to chassidishe, yeshivishe, or Torah im derech eretz variety, they are marching forward, step by step, to a more wakeful form of avodas hashem. . . Their greatest pride and joy and nachas consists of children who are talmidei chachamim, bnei torah and bnos Torah.”
(ibid p.89)
“Shameful are the ways of the glorified am haaretz who . . . condones the aberrations which Hirsch condemned, such as religious nationalism, Orthodox-Reform collaboration and neutral Judaism. Foolish are those who sympathize with the “Department Store Academy”, where Brisk and Slobodka are offered on the first floor and Graetz and Dubnow on the second. When such a person takes Rav Hirsch’s name in vain, wielding Torah im derech eretz like a weapon against recognized Torah schools, he becomes somewhat ridiculous! “What a travesty! Rav Hirsch, who was the warrior without compromise against those who hated the Torah, has to let his memory be invoked today against those who love the Torah. . .
(ibid p. 151)
All the above are direct quotations, easily verified by reading Selected Essays. Below is some “commentary” on the above.
This (the above quotes), from the Rav of the Torah Im Derech Eretz kehilla. TIDE is not an integration into any foreign culture nor an entry in any sort of way, into the outside community. The idea there is for Jews to be literate and learned enough to present a positive impression and an effective message to the “outside world”, plus, the ability to withstand the powerful anti-Torah impressions and messages of the outside world. TIDE does not espouse sending Jewish children to outside Universities. Rav Hirsh made his own schools - he did not send his students outside of the community.
79. Comment from Yosef
Time November 23, 2009 at 4:11 PM
Here are some additional quotes from Rav Schwab ZT’L:
“Sometimes the Modern Orthodox halachic foolishness which is flirting with the anti-Torah establishment, may border on heresy. This is all part and parcel of the spiritual confusion of the dark ages in which we happen to live”
(Source [of above]: Rav Shimon Schwab, Mitteilungen, Bulletin of Khal Adas Yeshurun April/May 1989.)
And here is an example of a plea to Modern Orthodoxy from Rav Shimon Schwab ZT”L, Rav of the Torah Im Derech Eretz Congregation Adas Jeshurun in Washington Heights (also a quote):
“And now we address ourselves to our chaveirim bedeah, our achim bemitzvos of the Orthodox Rabbinate of America. Ad masai? How long do you want to remain a branch, without becoming part of the tree? . . . We say to our achim b’mitzvos, “have Rachmonus with yourselves, and lemaan Hashem, part company with those who have given obscene semichah to to’evah clergymen” . . . Have rachmonus with yourselves, and break off your preofessional relationship with those who, for instance, consider Yishu HaNotzri merely a failed moshiach . . .We implore you . . . to part company with those gravediggers of Torah. I know it is a painful subject but it is unavoidable . . . We call on you to join us, the true Modern Orthodoxy [Rav Schwab is referring to previous stements of his that MO is today outdated and "anything but modern"], which is a generation of sincere mevakshei Hashem”.
(Source [of above]: Selected Essays, pp. 90-91)
80. Comment from Chaim
Time November 24, 2009 at 2:22 AM
Re: Yosef’s Last Rant
Your extensive quotes really have nothing to do with the discussion. What’s your point?
1) You misunderstand Rabbi Hirsch. You inaccurately wrote that he considered whether it would be appropriate to study secular subjects.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Rabbi Hirsch was not in doubt about this matter. Rabbi Hirsch vigorously promoted a curriculum featuring secular subjects taught within a Torah oriented framework.
You should study the writings of the late Rabbi Yoseph Soloveitchik who expanded
TIDE to include secular studies within a Torah college which would be available for individuals not qualified to study Torah full-time. (See Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 156:1 & Yorah Deah 245:19)
But Yosef. What you say is untrue.
You did indeed express your own opinion concerning the actions taken by Mordechai in the Book Of Esther. What YOU said was not said in the relevant talmudic selection: BT Megilla 16b.
You wrote:
“But because of some imperfection
in Mordechai, HaShem did not allow him to be zoche in learning,,,but forced him to close the gemara to save the world.”
Guess what? The gemara does not say anything of the sort.
The truth is the gemara ibid loc. does not even explicitly state that anyone disagreed with Mordechai’s conduct.
Elaborating on Esther 10:3,
the Talmud reports that a small number of his colleagues parted company from him. (Sheh Pare-Shoo Mee-Meh-Noo Miktsas Sanhedrin)
Why infer anything negative about Mordechai?
He was a noble champion of religious freedom whose actions were supported by the majority of the Sanhedrin. (Majority rule prevails; see
Ber.9a )
Furthermore, saving lives supersedes all mitzvahs as mandated in the Talmud: Ketubos 19a; Yoma 84b. (Rav Yoseph’s view is in BT Megilla 16b is a “Daas Yokhid”)
It is clear that Mordechai acted
in response to a life-threatening situation for gants Klal Yisroel. You don’t know PSHAT.
Finally, it should not be forgotten that Mordechai is one of the official 48 prophets as listed in BT Megilla 14, Halochos
Gedolos & Seder Olam. Your criticism of Mordechai’s conduct lacks substance.
81. Comment from Chaim
Time November 24, 2009 at 2:43 AM
Re quote “Break off your professional relationships with those who consider Yeshu
HaNotzri just a failed Messiah…”
Do you think the late Rabbi Schwab was accusing YU Torah U Madda proponents of supporting Yoshkeh people?
Many of those statements have to be understood in their proper context. (I read that book many years ago. Yoseph the editorial writer uses those random declarations to bash
YU and college studies. It would better for him to learn Torah instead.)
82. Comment from Chaim
Time November 24, 2009 at 2:48 AM
It should not be forgotten that to a certain extent Rabbi Schwab adopted the Hashkafa of the litvish yeshiva establishment. (It seems to me that in some respects he deviated from the original Hirschian TIDE approach.)
83. Comment from Yosef
Time November 24, 2009 at 11:00 AM
Chaim,
Prior to discharging your next diatribe, read the meforshim on the Gemora I quoted. That will be my last comment on that subject, as I will not be repetitive what I’ve pointed out numerous times above.
Regarding Hagaon HaRav Shimon Schwab ZT’L’s verbatim quotations above, HaRav Schwab ZT’L’s words speak for themselves.
And for the umpteenth time, please read my comments in context. As I quoted with his own words, HaRav Schwab ZT’L told the Modern Orthodox to break off their professional relationship with those who consider Yoshke merely a failed messiah. HaRav Schwab ZT’L did not say the MO themselves were supporting Yoshke people.
It is completely laughable how in comment 82 you purport to understand TIDE better than HaRav Schwab ZT’L — who aside from being a Godol HaDor was the Rov of the TIDE KEHILLA! And you rant about how Rav Schwab “deviated” from it. Perhaps he should have consulted you or your minions at YU first.
84. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 24, 2009 at 11:30 AM
Excellemt and erudite quotes from Rabbi Chaim:
messages 82 & 83.
In addition, it is part of the historical record that the late Rabbi Schwab studied in Litvak yeshivas and in so doing modified his TIDE hashkafa in accordance with the ideologies of his mentors in Eastern Europe where he studied before WW11.
I agree with Rabbi Chaim that quoting verbatim selections from a book at random does not serve any positive purpose. (The writer apparently is unable to think independently and thus cannot articulate his thoughts in his own words.)
The writer of the article under discussion falsely states that I disagree with Rabbi Schwab. (That is a ridiculous comment since it is unclear what the writer is referring to.) There are in fact many important ideas expressed by the rabbi in the book cited earlier which I support.
But Rabbi Schwab is not the only Torah scholar whose views are relevant to this complicated and important subject. (There is no compelling reason for anyone to rule out college based on random essays.)
Students should seek guidance from professional guidance counselors in order to determine what kind of employment would be appropriate for them. (Rabbis, psychologists,
social workers and guidance counselors should collaborate.)
85. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 24, 2009 at 12:20 PM
I would urge young people to heed the words of Rabbi Eidensohn of Monsey who expresses incisive criticism of the current Yeshiva system which is failing to prepare young people properly for the future.
I do not know Rabbi Eidensohn; but the
rabbi’s critique is relevant since he was a talmid of the late and great Rabbi Moshe Feinstein and Rabbi Yaakov Kamenitsky. The rabbi has made these critical statements on the radio–on a religious Jewish program–620 am. (He is a haredi clergyman so his trenchant commentary is relevant.) Dr. Arnold Berger
86. Comment from Yehuda Samuelson
Time November 24, 2009 at 1:20 PM
Re: #74 from Yosef
Stop it. You did exress your own opinion about Mordechai. (You are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to pretend that your personal bias is an accurate reflection of Chazal’s viewpoint.)
Rabbi Chaim Silver’s response is
right on target. Mordechai acted in accordance with the majority of the Sanhedrin.
It is presumptuous to suggest that there was “some imperfection in Mordechai”—
a prophet of HaShem.
Torah erudition without action when needed is frowned upon. (Yoseph’s article was full of nonsense and bias.)
You can refer to the end of the first chapter in The Ethics of The Fathers where this lesson is taught: Learning leads to virtuous conduct.
87. Comment from Akiva Frankel
Time November 24, 2009 at 3:24 PM
Yosef,
I’ve never commented before on Matzav, although I’m always reading the posts. But after reading this topic, I had to post and thank you for this amazing article and quotes from the Gedolim. I was waiting a long time for such a topic and it clarified many things for me.
Instinctively it always made so much sense, but I was never able to verbalize it, especially with all the proofs you brought.
And I also appreciate very much your posting of citations and the compilation of essays you brought from Rav Schwab in the comment section of this article above, about modern orthodoxy. It filled in a lot of blanks for me, on how the Gedolim zt”l looked at that issue.
Thank you, Thank you!
88. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 24, 2009 at 3:43 PM
Re #83 Yoseph’s Dishonest Comments
Yoseph, the ignorant writer, did not quote any gemara meforshim in his reply to Rabbi Chaim.
Yoseph, the ignoramous, however, did condemn the biblical hero Mordechai (see Esther 10:3), ignorantly stating that Mordechai
had “some imperfection”. The writer then wrote falsely that the “gemata says so and meforshim say so. Rubbish!
But there is good news. He promises not to write again. Will he keep his promise?
Such ignorance undermines Torah Judaism. Yoseph, you should study history and learn aleph bais before attempting to write your diatribes.
Your false interpretations of TIDE and Rabbi Schwab’s ideology are disgraceful.
Why don’t you read other readers of this news site
who clearly refute all your bigoted views?
89. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 24, 2009 at 3:49 PM
Guys like Yoseph should consult YU expert
theologians and educators. It wouldn’t hurt.
Rabbi Schwab adapted the original TIDE
to the Litvak Yeshiva approach he later accepted. (That’s the historical reality.)
The extent to which Rabbi Schwab modified his original views should be the subject a serious historial and theological analysis.
90. Comment from Yosef
Time November 24, 2009 at 5:40 PM
Akiva Frankel (#87):
Yasher Koach! It is for the Ish Emes, such as yourself, that this was written for.
_______________________
Berger, it is your primitive slavishness to your failed ideology that results in your duplicity. Nowhere have I insinuated what you and your buddies said about Mordechai. And I indicated I would no longer address your repetitive points about Mordechai, as I already answered that. So keep repeating yourselves on that. I will though respond to the other points made; and nowhere have I indicated I would not respond to any other issues you lie, fabricate, or prevaricate.
I also find it mildly amusing that Berger and Samuelson “knew” that a poster here who only identified himself as Chaim was “Rav” Chaim / Chaim Silver. Apparently the three stooges collaborated in their joint effort, as the effort of one was deemed insufficient in addressing points they could not answer.
91. Comment from Yosef
Time November 24, 2009 at 6:17 PM
Rav Aharon Kotler ZTV’L, in Mishnas Rabi Aharon (Vol. 3, Hesped on the Brisker Rav) states that the essence of Modern Orthodoxy is the same as the Reform and Conservative. That is, change Judaism into something that more people will be willing to accept.
Look it up in the Sefer, if in any doubt.
92. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 25, 2009 at 2:39 AM
Re Yoseph’s Pejorative Commentary On Mordechai: Yoseph, you did state that there was “some imperfection” in Mordechai, the biblical hero in the Book of Esther.
You then attributed your pejorative remarks about Mordechai to “Meforshim” and the “gemara.”
1) Who are the “Meforshim”?
Yoseph, yingele, “Meforshim” in Hebrew is in the plural form.
That means that you must now name more than one classical commentator who
makes the insulting comment you applied to Mordechai: “He had some imperfection.”
Tell everyone on this blog who those alleged “Meforshim” are.
Why don’t you tell the truth?
You made it up. (You’re entitled to your opinion but you’re not entitled to attribute your personal viewpoint to our classic commentators–CHAZAL.)
The truth is that no classical commentator says what you stated about Mordechai.
93. Comment from Yosef
Time November 25, 2009 at 4:24 PM
Arnie, Stop being such an am ha’aretz. You could have asked nicely instead of making rash assumptions. Nevertheless, I’ll respond to your question.
The Gemora is Megillah 16b. It doesn’t specifically say he had an imperfection, although it is implied. But the idea is spoken about elsewhere in the meforshim. See the Taz on Yoreh Deah 151 for one such place.
94. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 25, 2009 at 6:38 PM
Re: #97 Yoseph Yingele’s Mistake
Yoseph, now you call me Arnie before you
called me Berger. It’s Dr.Arnold Berger—if you can spell all that.
Yoseph, you wrote “it is implied” that
Mordechai “had some imperfection according to meforshim.” The Taz does not say that Mordechai ‘had some imperfection.” The Taz does
not say that Mordechai “went down in his madraygeh”. (You wrote that nonsense.)
That’s what you say–incorrectly or one of your fanatic buddies told you to say.
You said there are “meforshim” who say that. That means–loshen rabim–that you must cite more than one classical commentator.
Now by asserting that “it is implied”, you are expressing AN OPINION—which is wrong and possibly blasphemous.
Didn’t you read Chaim’s refutation #80? (The gemara oifn platz does not state that Mordechai “had some imperfection” or that he was demoted from his status as a prophet—you peasant!
The gemara does not say that
Mordechai went down in his “madraygeh”.
Where do you get the Chutzpeh
to denigrate Mordechai—A full-fledged Navi?
You wrote that Mordechai had “to close his gemara.” Ferd! The gemara had not yet been compiled in writing at the time of the Book of Esther, which was 500 years before Rav Ashi edited the written version.
Saving lives is a primary obligation which overrides abstract talmudic
pilpul which does nobody any good.
95. Comment from Yosef
Time November 25, 2009 at 7:15 PM
Arnie sheifele, I am not trained to bring up your reading comprehension to an adult level. All readers who are an Ish Emes, such as Akiva Berger (comment #87) above, are free to read the referenced Gemora, Taz, and my aforementioned comments.
There is nothing to apologize for to Arnie on the behalf of either Chazal or the Taz, for saying what they wrote. It is as I said. (Now Arnie, why don’t you call one of your stooges who commented before to back up what you say? Apparently you feel they’re anonymous comments are more reliable than the Gemora and the Taz combined!)
96. Comment from Yosef
Time November 25, 2009 at 7:19 PM
Comment #87 is Akiva “Frankel” rather. My apologies to him for mistakenly using the impious’ ones name.
97. Comment from Shlomo Zalman
Time November 25, 2009 at 7:48 PM
Mr. Berger — Please utilize repectful language in your discourse. Resorting to vulgar and abhorrent terms such as ferd, ignorant ignoramus, yingele, etc. etc. does not advance your cause — even assuming it has any merit. Your usage of offensive language merely discredits you.
On a side note, in comment number 75 you wrote to yoseph that “your advocacy of a minority opinion against Mordechai HaTzaddik is NIT
OISGEHALTEN.” After that, as your comments became more odious, you changed tacts and started positing that yoseph’s position was his own and without any source. I haven’t read the Taz (or the Gemara for that matter) yet that a mekor was given by yoseph, so I cannot comment whether it is the mainstream opinion or a “minority” one. Nevertheless I would like to understand on what basis you changed your strident tone from claiming it was a minority opinion to claiming it was a personal one. Your change of position on that raised a lot of red flag to my eyes.
BTW the Gemora was learnt long long before Rav Ashi codified it.
98. Comment from Re: #97
Time November 25, 2009 at 8:51 PM
Yingele Yoseph must be reading the Koran again.
Neither the Talmud nor Shulchan Aruch says that Mordechai was demoted from his status as prophet or that Mordechai had “some imperfection” which made him interrupt his studies.
(I don’t know the other bloggers. You just can’t accept the fact that learned Jews disagree with your weird opinions, which are not supported by scholarly sources.)
1) Do you seriously contend that saving lives is not mandated by the holy Torah?
2) Do you actually believe that it is more important to continue learning as opposed to saving lives?
Mordechai acted to save lives not because of some imperfection which made him stop learning. What kind of nonsense are you preaching?
All great rabbis have acted on behalf of their communities in order to promote justice and save lives.
During World War II Rosh Yeshivas
closed their gemaras to demonstrate in Washington on behalf of the Jews who were subjected to genocide by the Nasis. In addition, Rosh Yeshivas (for example, Rabbi Kalminovitch of the Mir Yeshiva) were known to travel to different synagogues on Shabbos to raise money to help the victims of the Nazi persecutions.
Would you also say that those Rosh Yeshivas must have had some character imperfection which forced them to close their gemaras?
Well, if you think Mordechai had some imperfection for trying to help other people, the same would apply to the aforementioned Rosh Yeshivas according to your warped thinking. That is not what the Torah teaches. “Not study, but practice is the main thing.” (Ethics Of The Fathers Chapter 1 Mishneh 17)
Thus, any inference suggesting an imperfection in Mordechai’s character is ludicrous. To the contrary, Mordechai’s alacrity to champion the religious freedom of his people underscores his sterling character.
99. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 25, 2009 at 8:55 PM
#98 was my response to #97
Dr> Arnold Berger
100. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 25, 2009 at 9:16 PM
None of Yoseph’s references indicate that
Mordechai had some imperfection or was demoted from his status as prophet. There is no explicit assertion made to that effect by any classical source in Torah literature.
It is a figment of Yoseph’s imagination.
To the contrary, Mordechai’s actions to champion the religious freedom of his people evidence perfection of character.
Just as Mordechai showed leadership, so did many Rosh Yeshivas during World War 11 when they closed their gemaras to demonstrate on behalf of the victims of Nazi genocide. In addition, they traveled on Shabbos to raise money for their brethren who were persecuted.
Those noble rabbis did not sit in the Bais Midrash learning. Rather, they acted to the best of their ability to save lives.
Contrary to Yoseph’s opinion, the Torah demands action: “Not learning but action is the main thing.” (Ethics Of The Fathers Chapter 1, Mishneh 17)
101. Comment from Shlomo Zalman
Time November 25, 2009 at 11:27 PM
Mr. Berger — Actually #98 was my comment, not yours. You need to be accurate in your statements, something thus far sorely lacking.
I notice my words to you requesting common human decency in your comments have fallen on deaf ears. So be it. You have discredited yourself more than anyone else can.
That being said, I will point out that Yoseph said nothing of the sort that you contend. You have consistently throughout this thread put words in your opponents mouth, of the sort they never said. Most recently you make false implications with your statements of “Do you seriously contend that saving lives is not mandated by the holy Torah? Do you actually believe that it is more important to continue learning as opposed to saving lives?” etc. etc.
But any person of even mediocre intelligence (so I will assume you too Mr. Berger are at least of mediocre intelligence) can look back at Yoseph’s original comments on Mordechai and see he wrote (in #65): “This does not mean that one should learn when Klal Yisroel is in danger. But rather, it would have been a big Zechus for Mordechai if Hashem would have chosen a different way to foil Haman’s plan, one that did not involve him having to close his Gemora for a while.
Yoseph, my advice to you is to not bother responding to this troll posting as Mr. Berger. His preconceived agenda is clear; all rhyme, logic, and reason have no impact upon him.
102. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 26, 2009 at 2:23 AM
Re: #102 Shlomo Zalman
I guess Yoseph has a khavruseh. (Shlomo Zalman was not previously posted next to #98 but that’s ok.)
Yoseph needs help. But not the kind you wish to offer since by your own admission you did not read the relevant texts. Thus, you get F for a grade in both academics and manners.
If you don’t even know the literature, how can you discuss it rationally?
With regard to human decency, how can you call me a troll. I am a scholar and much older than both of you. Aren’t religious chaps supposed to be civil?
Zalmen, you complain about indecent language. But your buddy himself used unkind language to me, a scholar who is very conversant with the literature.
See #94 where Yoseph calls me Arnie,
not my name and then proceeds to dub me an Amhaarets after I pointed out the flaws in the writer’s amateur interpretation.
See #91 where the guy accuses me of “duplicity”. Thereafter the guy associates me with the three stooges. Hey, is that nice?
Re your reference to #65:
Zalmen, you forgot to quote the other relevant parts:
“But because of some imperfection in Mordechai, Hashem did not allow him to be zoche to learning all day as he wanted, but rather ‘forced’ him to go out and save the world…
“So even if Mordechai went down in madreigah, imagine how much more learning all day is worth ….”
(Actually, it’s not a bad sermon.
Learning is certainly better than spending your entire life on cell phones. No problem with that part.)
The problem here is that Yoseph erroneously stated that the relevant sacred literature made those statements. And the gist of such an assertion does include a pejorative
description of Mordechai who is listed as a bona fide prophet.
Contrary to Yoseph’s assertions,
the talmudic selection in question (Megilla 16b)
does not state that Mordechai declined in his spiritual stature in any shape or form. (It does not report Mordechai having gone down “in Madreigah”, which Yoseph theorized having occurred, since he had to save his people.
That is Yoseph’s opinion. He believes–erroneously–that the foregoing selection implies that scenario. None of the classical sources say anything of the sort.
I am conversant with the literature and there is no such description.
The notion that Mordechai went down “in madreigeh” is not stated anywhere in our Torah literature.
Before the Purim episode Mordechai was a prophet and in the aftermath he remained a prophet. Thus, there is no evidence from any source of any decline in his
status. This is a big issue since it involves the honor of a GODOL—a member of the Sanhedrin and a Navi as well. (Not everybody is classified among the 48 Prophets of Israel.
You should show more respect to the prophets of Israel. Shame on you!
Yoseph expressed another theory:
namely, that it would have been a “bigger zechus” for Mordechai had he not been forced to go on a rescue mission. How in tarnation does he know that? That’s his own opinion.
To the contrary: What could be a greater “zechus” or more noble than rescuing the lives of virtuous people?
1) Why do you guys have a right to insult those who disagree with you?
2) Why do you guys have a right to insult the great and noble educators who serve their community in Yeshiva University?
3) Why do you guys insult the memory of the late Rabbi Yoseph B. Soloveitchik.
Repent sinners! Shalom.
103. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 26, 2009 at 2:53 AM
Re #101
What about indecent remarks like: “Berger, it is your primitive slavishness…rhar results in your duplicity.”
You write: “Please Mr. Berger utilize respectful discourse…”
Why don’t you tell that to your pal Yoseph? He calls me and all the other people
who disagree with him all sorts of bad names:
“Three stooges” etc?
How old are you guys? Are you in special education?
Hey, just asking.
104. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 26, 2009 at 5:12 AM
Re: #101
Ok Shlomo Zalman. I’ll answer your question if you promise to behave. I am a rabbi.
The Yiddish expression “nit oisgehalten” is not vulgar contrary to your misunderstanding. It simply means: not acceptable or untenable.
But getting back to the main subject: You misunderstood my reply to Yoseph.
I did not change my position by redirecting my rebuttal from tha vantage point of a minority opinion to a personal opinion with respect to Yoseph’s interpretation.
You’ll see that thereafter in #75,
I wrote:
“Mordechai’s actions embody the highest ideals of HaShem’s Torah. Leemud HaTorah is not just idle speculation, It calls for action.” Whatever you guys think of the subject, one can hardly describe that statement as being either “strident or odious” as you mistakenly claim.
Now, I did refer to another blogger identified as Chaim #65 who cited the pertinent gemara with “meforshim” concerning the subject. I also referred to blogger Chaim’s
response #80 where the actual text of that gemara is quoted with a transliteration of the original.
You got lost because you did not read the relevant talmudic selection. (I don’t hold that against you; at least you’re honest about your ignorance. However, since you are ignorant, don’t you think you should not have insulted me? After all, I do know the gemara. Yoseph inexplicably insulted me and others who disagreed with him. Why? For knowing the gemara, apparently.)
Okay, let’s put aside idiosyncratic personality clashes and focus instead on the subject.
What is this about a minority opinion vs. a majority opinon. (This question had nothing to do with Yoseph. In his case, we’re dealing with his own understanding of the literature as mentioned earlier.)
The gemara ibid. loc. reports
that a few members parted company from Mordechai. (One could infer in theory that those colleagues disagreed or disaproved of Mordechai’s actions, although the gemara does not say anything of the sort. Rashi explains that because of his official responsibilities in government service, Mordechai had to interrupt his learning. That explains why a few of Mordechai’s colleagues saw fit, apparently, to break off relations with Mordechai. Nonetheless, the majority of Mordechai’s brethren did not follow the lead of the minority’s aloofness from Mordechai.)
Consequently, if there is anything negative to say about Mordechai in terms of there being some imperfection about him or an ensuing decline in “madaygeh”, it would be the view of a minority on the Sanhedrin in question. But the “Khidush” is that Mordechai cannot be viewed as either having undergone a spiritual decline or disabled by some character flaw or imperfection as inferred by Yoseph. He had the backing of the majority of his brethren—the other Sanhedrin justices.
(See Esther 10:13 The Talmud explains the term “brethren” as referring to the other judges who are the majority.)
Look, people can discuss this matter at great length and disagree. But a legitimate difference of opinion does not justify your crude comments and nasty name-calling. You can express your disagreement in a civil fashion. Otherwise, don’t be surprised if others express disapproval of your nastiness.
Keep learning.
105. Comment from Shlomo Zalman
Time November 26, 2009 at 8:20 AM
Mr. Berger —
You’ve been using non-scholarly disrespectful and abhorrent language (i.e. “ignoramous” and “ignorant writer”) at least as far back as your comment #88. Anyone subject to your vulgarity would be entitled to defend themselves.
I am a father-figure to you. You are scholar of, at most, Fisher-Price’s line of products. You need to learn common human decency from an adult, so when you become of age you can socially interact properly.
As I’ve pointed out you not only misconstrue what others are saying so you can twist their words into something they never stated, you are outright dishonest about what people clearly and openly wrote.
In any event I have now studied the relevant Gemorah and Taz on Shulchan Aruch. Yoseph accurately and faithfully described their holy words in comment #65. So you may continue your rants, but it is our holy forefathers that you are ranting against Mr. Berger, no one else.
One final point to you Mr. Berger. You had the rishus and tremendous chutzpa to try to be mevazeh the man who singlehandedly rebuilt Torah in the post-war world; the man who made Torah in America into what it is today. You truly are a laughingstock and a rasha merusha. Anyone who can stoop to that, it is questionable if their heritage is Jewish.
106. Comment from Shlomo Zalman
Time November 26, 2009 at 11:12 AM
Baruch Hashem I see the moderators of this website have removed Mr. Berger’s attack (that was originally in #105) upon perhaps the greatest Godol HaDor of the and post-war generation, that I referred to in my last paragraph. I would like to thank the Editor of this website for removing that blasphemous sentence from what Mr. Berger wrote.
107. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 26, 2009 at 12:02 PM
Re #109 Shlomo Zalman
You did not read the gemara and Taz
quoted. If you did, you understood zilch.
(Those selections do not say that
Mordechai “went down in madraigeh or had some imperfection.”) If so translate or transliterate where those negative comments are
set forth EXPLICITLY. (Even Yoseph was forced to admit that his commentary was drawn from an inference without explaining the basis for his subjective viewpoint. However you slice it, what he said was still an opinion.)
Do you know the difference between opinion and fact? Apparently not.
You guys disparaged Yeshiva University and the late Rabbi Yoseph Soloveitchik several times which is forbidden by Torah law.
By that’s par for the course for you benighted wiseguys. After all, you
disparaged Mordechai–a biblical prophet.
Objective readers can judge for themselves. (You just can’t take legitimate criticism.)
One final point:
You’re wrong about Jewish history.
Yoseph ignorantly wrote that
“Mordechai had to close his gemara.”
There was no gemara at that time to close. (That’s historical reality.)
Yes, the Jewish People had
Torah Sheh Beh Al Peh—but that means in English—ready for this: ORAL TORAH!
Hence the absence of a written
gemara, which Mordechai could not have possibly closed. Mordechai lived approx. 500 years BEFORE Torah Sheh Beh Al Peh was edited in writing by Rav Ashi. (What makes you think that Mordechai just learned Torah? He had other duties as a Sanhedrin Justice.)
Farshteyst? Think about it. Of course we had Torah Sheh Beh Al Peh—halacha leh Moshe Mee Sinai. Don’t you guys know this?
Keep learning!
108. Comment from Yisroel Eisenberg
Time November 26, 2009 at 1:47 PM
The writer of the hostile article, Yoseph and blogger Shlomo Zalmen show disrespect toward Torah scholars.
Yoseph, the writer, did write extensive disparaging remarks about HaRav
Yoseph B. Soloveitchik zts’al.
Not only that but he insulted an entire community and YU Yeshiva.
He insulted Dr. Berger who showed that such people like Yoseph are not qualified to discuss Talmud and Jewish history.
These guys are certainly not qualified
to talk about education.
Their educational philosophy is inappropriate for people. Thanks to such yeshivish ideas. illiteracy proliferates and
“Avodas HaShem” is undermined.
Shlomo Zalmen did not study the talmudic sources under discussion by his own admission. So how can he presume to talk about a subject he does not know?
Yoseph was forced to admit that the relevant gemara BT 16b does not state what he originally claimed. (Dr. Berger is right about that.) In fact, Yoseph conceded that he had infered the negative depiction of Mordechai HaTzaddik from that gemara.
Wake up and do Teshuvah.
109. Comment from Yisroel Eisenberg
Time November 26, 2009 at 2:12 PM
Re Shlomo Zalman #106
Since you do not know Dr. Arnold Berger, how can you presume to be on such familiar terms with him? That’s very offensive. Just because you disagree with Dr. Berger, that doesn’t give you the right to attack him.
But you by your own admission you were ignorant of the gemara BT 16b; yet you ignorantly decided to comment on the subject.
(That’s typical of fanatics.)
But it’s ok for you guys to bash Mordechai HaTzaddik attributing to him imperfections and a decline in madraygeh. (Your friend Yoseph’s misguided inference.)
Dr. Berger and others have a right to defend themselves against your vile and vicious
attacks, while, simultaneously rebuking you wiseguys for the aforementioned negative comments about Mordechai in Megilas Esther.
Apparently, according to your warped outlook on life, it is forbidden to disagree with the late Rabbi Aharon Kotler’s views but it is ok to trash and bash Rabbi Y. B. Soloveitchik.
That’s your shitah right?
Shame on you–ah shandeh!
110. Comment from Anonymous
Time November 26, 2009 at 2:46 PM
Correction: Instead of “liable” read libel.
111. Comment from Brisker
Time November 26, 2009 at 4:40 PM
Oh, for the sake of the truth, will you two modern orthodox fanatics (Arnold & Yisroel) stop bashing Bnei Torah as well as the entire Yeshiva velt?? So you disagreed with the writer’s explanation of the Gemorah and/or Taz on S”A. So what. It is par for the course. Disagreements on the texts of the Gemorah and/or Taz is no excuse for your vile comments above.
Repeating such narishkeit and shtusim, as you’ve done repeatedly above, another 100 times on this webpage will not make it any more true than it was the first time you said it above.
And btw I saw Arnold’s appalling and disgusting attack, in comment 105, against one of the biggest gedolim, before the webmaster edited it out. I was truly shocked beyond words. Talk about Teshuva.
112. Comment from Brisker
Time November 27, 2009 at 1:05 AM
The last approx. 50 comments were renumbered sometime today. It appears they were reduced by 1 number each. So references to comment numbers, in the body of the comments above, may no longer be accurate.
113. Comment from Yosef
Time November 27, 2009 at 3:03 PM
Akiva, Shlomo, and Brisker - Thank You for your support.
Shlomo, yasher koach for actually looking up the mekoros I provided and correctly seeing and understanding what I explained vis-a-vis Mordechai HaTzadik from Mesechtes Megilah 16b.
For an even fuller explanation on the point I brought out about Mordechai HaTzaddik, see the Chasam Sofer, Toras Moshe Vayikra p. 21b, explaining the Taz on YD 251:6.
114. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time November 28, 2009 at 11:42 PM
Re: Yoseph’s Last Message
Come on Yoseph, you know that Chasam Sofer does not state that Mordechai Hatsaddik
was selected by the Oibershter to save Klal Yisroel because of “some imperfection”he had and that as a result his “madraygeh” went down. Ah nekhtiker Tog! Narishkeiten!
Before making adverse comments on Mordechai Hatsaddik, you should make sure that
the commentary is supported by explicit documentation. In your case, you have failed to meet the most minimum standards.
Better luck next time.
Why don’t you just admit that the foregoing is your own opinion. (Perhaps you heard that “shtoos” from somebody else. But it’s not shayikh the sugyeh.) Dr. Arnold Berger
115. Comment from Yosef
Time November 29, 2009 at 2:23 AM
Re: Dr. Arnold Berger’s last post
Please study the Chasam Sofer I provider a mekor for. Afterwards see if you still have any questions. I believe it will have been addressed by the Chasam Sofer explaining the Taz on Yoreh Deah regarding Megillah 16b.
116. Comment from Matzav.com Editor
Time November 29, 2009 at 3:00 AM
THE COMMENTS SECTION FOR THIS POST IS NOW CLOSED.
WE THANK ALL THOSE WHO HAVE PARTICIPATED IN THIS DISCUSSION.
MATZAV.COM
117. Comment from Yosef
Time December 3, 2009 at 7:22 PM
With the Editor’s kind permission, I’d appreciate if I can add the following addendum explaining in more detail the aforementioned Gemorah.
Megilla 16b:
כי מרדכי היהודי משנה למלך אחשורוש וגדול ליהודים ורצוי לרוב אחיו לרוב אחיו ולא לכל אחיו מלמד שפירשו ממנו מקצת סנהדרין אמר רב יוסף גדול ת”ת יותר מהצלת נפשות דמעיקרא חשיב ליה למרדכי בתר ד’ ולבסוף בתר חמשה מעיקרא כתיב (עזרא ב) אשר באו עם זרובבל ישוע נחמיה שריה רעליה מרדכי בלשן ולבסוף כתיב (נחמיה ו) הבאים עם זרובבל ישוע נחמיה עזריה רעמיה נחמני מרדכי בלשן
The Gemorah uses the fact that in Ezra (pre-Purim) Mordechai is listed 5th, while in Nechemia (post-Purim) he is listed 6th (in other words he went down a notch) as proof that he went down because of the time he was away from the Bais Medrash (saving the Yidden).
Rashi says that by being mvatel from his learning (by leaving the Beis Medrash) to save Klal Yisroel, it was considered bittul Torah. See the end of the Taz on Yoreh Deah 251.
The Chasam Sofer, Toras Moshe Vayikra, says when the Pikuach Nefesh situation came his way and it and made him temporarily stop learning Torah, it indicates that his learning is “aino-chaviv” in the eyes of the Ribono Shel Olam.
So even though the Gemorah says gadol Talmud Torah m’pikuach nefesh, this does not mean that one should learn when Klal Yisroel is in danger. But rather, it would have been a big zechus for Mordechai if Hashem would have chosen a different way to foil Haman’s plan, one that did not involve him having to leave the Beis Medrash for a while. And the point of this whole discussion is that if even Mordechai went down a notch in madreiga because of having to learn less Torah temporarily in order to save all of Klal Yisroel, imagine how much more learning all day is worth as opposed to spending a good portion of your life selling cell phones, working in computers, or practicing law.
118. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time December 6, 2009 at 12:59 AM
Re: #128
The reference is to BT Berachos 43b
Koheles 3:11
119. Comment from Anonymous
Time December 23, 2009 at 12:21 PM
To The Editors:
You should allow a rebuttal to the
writer’s last comment #118.
Rashi is not expressing his own
opinion. Rather, he is explaining Rav
Yosef—the Amora—who actually
represents a minority opinion of Sanhedrin
judges. The majority supported Mordechai,
contrary to Rav Yosef’s opinion.
The quotation from Taz has absolutely
no bearing on the “Halacha” under
discussion, which would require
reallocation of Torah Study funds for
saving lives—Yorah Deah 251.
Taz simply seeks a rationale for
Rav Yosef’s unique position which, at first
glance, accords priority to Torah learning
over saving lives. (Taz agrees that such
a literal interpretation is unwarranted.
In his explanation of the Amora’s opinion,
Taz offers a utopian interpretation—
along the lines of “it would have been
better had Mordechai not been
required to stop learning in order to save
lives”.) Torah learning demands action.
Thus, the writer’s premise is flawed.
120. Comment from Teimini
Time December 26, 2009 at 11:45 PM
#119 (previous comment) — None of the comments above on this page said that one should learn instead of saving lives; but rather that it would have been a big zechus for Mordechai if Hashem would have selected a different way to stop Haman’s plan, one that did not involve him having to stop learning for a while.
121. Comment from Hershel
Time December 28, 2009 at 6:54 PM
Dear readers and author,
I pray that this comment will be constructive and promote achdus amongst each other.
There are obviously a spectrum of opinions on secular education among our community. Each of us have a unique upbringing, background and outlook. Each of us have special strengths purposes and goals. Each of us have the capability to respect and tolerate one another.
To the author: Blessings to you, your work and family. My constructive feedback is for future articles to explore the cons of secular education as well as those opinions who support. For me to be persuaded, I would like to see a full discussion of the opposite view and why that opinion should be distinguished, qualified or refuted.
I am a beginner in the world of yiddishkeit so hearing more arguments from both sides would be most helpful for coming to a conclusion.
Thank you for your research!
122. Comment from To Hershel (#121)
Time December 29, 2009 at 1:49 AM
You should have no trouble at all finding the opposite view, namely of those who support secular education. The reason for this is simply that is the “popular opinion”, and you can easily find many articles written in support of it.
Of course something being the “popular opinion” does not necessarily make it “correct”. The outlook expressed in this article above you will not as readily find expressed, at least as eloquently and scholarly as it is here, elsewhere. (At least from my limited research on this issue.)
Hatzlocha Rabba (much good luck) to you as you increase your level of Yiddishkeit!
123. Comment from Dr. Arnold Berger
Time January 3, 2010 at 8:34 PM
Re: Hershel #121
“There are obviously a spectrum of opinions
on secular education in our community…”
It is good to study this issue carefully
without automatically accepting as
undisputed truth the extremely opinionated
statements made in this article.
It is incorrectly asserted that the
viewpoint there totally conforms with
“Da’as Torah”—unadulterated authoritative
doctrine.
I urge you to read the scholarly
refutations of the author’s bias.
This is not simply a matter of
“popular opinion.” What I wrote–together
with other scholars–reflects
legitimate Torah guidelines and
philosophy. Torah knowledge combined
with secular knowledge leads to
proper living as defined by HASHEM’s
Torah.
124. Comment from velv
Time January 14, 2010 at 6:10 PM
Hagoen HaRav Moshe Feinstein zt”l in Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah 4:36 issued a psak din that a boy should not attend college, as it will interfere with achievement in his Torah studies. Rav Moshe states that attending college in order to improve one’s future ability to earn a living is inappropriate. He says that one should be concerned with earning a living only when it becomes a relevant issue.
1. Comment from Yehuda
Time November 9, 2009 at 12:29 PM
So what is your point? Do you really expect the yeshivas to drop Limudei Chol? Are you expecting the entire Klal Yiroel not to be accountants, doctors, lawyers? As it is our mosdos are standing on the financial abyss. The USA is no longer a manufacturing society as it was in the 1950’s and 1960’s and yes even the 1970’s. The type of jobs available then are not available today.