A Reader Writes: A New Angle On the Shidduch Crisis

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shidduchim1Dear Editor,
The “age gap theory”* has been receiving attention recently. What is being done to address this problem is providing incentives to make closer-in-age shidduchim and spreading awareness of it. This obviously has value and should continue. On top of that, I’m suggesting a new angle. We can divide the age gap into two components:

1) The boys start dating later.

2) After starting, some of them take their time.

There is a phenomenon unique to today that a largely disproportionate number of girls are looking to marry learning guys. This results in boys – in an effort (often subconscious) to get a girl on their level of frumkeit – attempting or pretend to be more serious about learning than they are cut out to be. This is by no means across te board, but there is a segment of boys are fall into this category.

For example, a boy who has the money and zitzfleish to sit and learn for two years may try his hand at ten years. A boy who would be a learner-earner may be in a (full-time) yeshiva. Scaling down, a boy who could have been working since he was twelve may stay until third year and then go to a more laid back yeshiva that allows part time education or working. Of course I am generalizing, but I have to for the point of this letter.

Important: Some people have a hard time understanding why a boy would put himself in an overtaxing situation he doesn’t belong in, and thus wrongly place the blame on the boys.

Let’s clarify this by giving some examples. Say a boy, if not for society/girls, would be best off taking night classes. This is his dilemma. To take night classes, he has to switch to a yeshiva that allows it. That yeshiva might cater to boys who are less frum than he is. The boys there are also likely not to be his type and he will have no social life. On top of that, he will be suggested mostly girls who are not his type.

Another example: A frum solid boy who doesn’t come from a rich family and doesn’t want to limit himself to the 10 (?) percent of girls who can support him in today’s economy decides he should go to work. He is immediately hit with many issues that are a direct or indirect result of this issue. For starters, he has no one to network with because all of his friends are in yeshiva. When he gets over that barrier, though, 1) he has no more frum environment, 2) he has no more friends, and 3) he has no more girls to date. Yes, he might get a girl much less frum than he is and he might get one who has less qualities which is why she decided to be openminded about who she dates in the first place, but who says that will work out? And then what? He then decides that he shouldn’t go to work.

We see that even the biggest baal bitachon might have a good reason for sticking around. It’s high time that people drop the following misinterpretation of the Gemara in Sotah that every thing is bashert and everyone gets who they were destined for regardless of their actions. Clearly, Hashem gives us bechira to mess things up for ourselves (and maybe others – see the Ohr Hachayim Hakadosh) by making wrong decisions. If you disagree with this, then you disagree with addressing the age gap issue in the first place.

Now let’s address why this trend = age gap.

Many boys are extending themselves and attempting to be something they’re not. Consequently, they are not ready to begin dating until later. You need to have a certain level of happiness, productivity and responsibility in order to take that step. Also, the girls wouldn’t date them because “he’s a little kid.” You probably notice that most working boys start dating at 20 (as do Chassidim, some Israelis and some Sephardim – many of whom are allowed to do what’s best for themselves) and the real learners tend to be ready then as well, but they won’t start dating two years before their friends do. (We are not suggesting that boys are ‘faking.’ Absolutely not. Chas veshalom. That is totally not what is being said here by any stretch. It’s not black and white like that. Rather, most boys ‘upgrade’ somewhat – which by the way is a good thing too; don’t misunderstand – and take on more hours or years than they would’ve otherwise.

Because a boy who plans to support his own family often won’t get a “yes,” he may feel compelled in turn to date strictly girls whose families can provide support. This results in a majority of boys pursuing a minority of girls. The result is that boys take longer. Think about it. If everyone first waits in line to date the wealthy girls, and only when that doesn’t work out they switch lines, the result is that nearly all the boys take longer to get engaged. If the lines are relatively equal and people choose strictly by what makes sense for them, then everyone gets in earlier. Granted, there will always be more boys on some lines than others because there are other qualities that are universally appealing, but we don’t have to create new ones. Also, if you speak to boys about why they’re big parshiyos don’t work out, you’ll notice that many are related to this issue. i.e., he’s not serious enough for her, her family won’t support, they will support but they’ll be controlling, etc. And when a 22-year-old boy has a parsha it’s with a 20-year-old girl. When he is 24 and has his next parsha, it’s also with a 20-year-old. And when he gets married at 26, you got it, it’s also with a 20-year-old. Also, being in this compromising setting is also very bad for the mental health of a bochur, essentially leading him to be less frum – perhaps – than had he gone to work, resulting in him not being frum enough for the girl.

There are more girls than boys. Normally, a girl dates someone in her league. An “a” marries an “a,” a “b” marries a “b,” and so on. What’s happening here is both “a” and “b” girls are taught to marry “a”s (for example, the (“b”) girl who wasn’t so good in high school now ‘deserves’ a couple of years learning because she went to seminary), and “c” girls are going after “b” boys. And the “d” boy is NOT EVEN ON THE MARKET. Take the guy who maybe is not so frum and has been working his whole life. His “d” counterpart is chasing “c”s! He now has to turn to a different segment of society or the street for a shidduch. Hence, there are more 19-year-old girls than 19-year-old boys and more 23-year-old girls than 23-year-old boys. (Some of the boys got chased off the ‘shidduch island,’ if you will).

I want to stress that learning is very important – the most important – and it’s a wonderful thing that girls/society support it. I’m not saying that girls shouldn’t support Torah; rather, they should focus on the boy doing what he can, as opposed to pigeonholing him into a number of hours or years.

There are three things Hashem cries about (Chagigah 5b). One of them is someone who isn’t supposed to learn but does anyway. Perhaps if we stop him from crying, he will stop us.

In closing, what triggered this study was the observation that this is the first generation that has this problem. Moreover, even within this society it’s only the mainstream/Litvish/ultra-Orthodox. (The Modern Orthodox may have their own shidduch crisis, but it’s not mainly driven by the age gap. It’s a problem for boys and girls almost equally, and it’s driven by Western culture.) I asked myself what else is unique to this generation and unique to the mainstream/yeshivishe world? The answer? An overwhelming number of girls looking to marry Yissochors and not Zevulluns. I rest my case.

Chances are you disagree with some things. I couldn’t address all of your unspoken questions as I wanted to be concise. Please email me at jewishcrisis@gmail.com with any question you have and I will get back to you, be’ezras Hashem.

*The formula for the “age gap” theory; g=b(1+p)y ; where “g” is the amount of girls, “b” is the amount of boys, “p” is the population growth rate, and “y’ is the years of the gap. Obviously if “p” and “y” are both positive integers, “g”>”b”.

A Political Scientist

P.S. Limud haTorah is the most important thing in the world. The fact that boys are learning more than maybe they thought the could – who knows how powerful that is and what zechusim it brings us. Who knows if perhaps that reason itself to leave the system alone? We don’t know. We must turn to gedolim and daas Torah for that. This discussion is merely aimed at raising the issue, making the connection, and detailing the crisis in a manner that has never been detailed before. The ulitmate decisions must be made by our gedolim. This discussion here is the beginning of a process of analyzing and dissecting the shidduch crisis and age gap problem in real and practical terms.

 {Matzav.com Newscenter}


  1. cute formula at the end . its the same for compounded interest. just the y should be raised. it should be to the y power.

  2. Normally i would say that learnings the most important thing and if it results in a gap its gods problem but if its like you say then maybe its a different story.

  3. This is a phenomenally written article with a brave revolutionary take on the crisis. We can only pray that yeshivas and bais yaacovs are able to read this article with an open mind and address the crisis appropriately. Thank you political scientist!

  4. i disagree with alot of it especially the part of more people the same age, but its a breath of fresh air. im tired of hearing the same stuff over again

  5. Here in Toronto, there are no elderly Bochurum & no young ones. We even agree to have everything done in America; and yet, American boys are still afraid that after the wedding, the girl will, never-the-less, constantly Shlepp the family to us for Yomim Tovim and other occasions. American boys like to have it easy.

  6. Hashem also cries about someone who is supposed to learn and doesnt. We need girls to support learning especially in todays economy!

  7. I dont believe the d boy is not on the market like you say. some girls are very open to the idea of going out with a boy who is less frum than them. but otherwise very well written article with an important message for our times.

  8. I wouldnt mind if only the most sincere girls look for learning. why should a brainwashed girl snatch a learning guy from me and change her mind a year later.

  9. Vihaser satan milfaneinu – Umeachareinu. Id like to hear what these seminary heads have to say in their defense.

  10. You failed to mention that the root of the problem is the yeshiva systems. there is a yeshiva for every single type of guy. even if a guy should be in college or working, instead he just goes to a yeshiva that caters to him. although some guys in these yeshivas really turn around and become bnei torah,but on the overall for most guys it just delays the inevitable process!

  11. “MO may have their own shidduch crisis but it’s not mainly driven by the age gap. it’s a problem for boys and girls almost equally, and it’s driven by western culture”

    False! Many more times girls than boys in MO circles as well, as evidenced by numbers of boys and girls, on Sawyouatsinai, etc.

    It’s understandable for even a small child. Each time a 25 year old guy dates and gets engaged to any girl much younger, there is one less potential husband for a 23, 24, or 25 y.o. girl, leaving one girl, so to speak “Agunah” (instead of her being chained to her marriage, she’s chained to her single state), each time it happens!

  12. you are correct in explaining how things are, but can you please explain how we can fix this problem. explaining the problem is of no help, without giving some sort of solution.

  13. Its amazink how every little shnook thinks he has the shidduch crisis understood. Its about time we realize that its not in our hands and we can only turn to avinu shebashamayim and daven.

  14. You are so on the money! Ive dated so many guys and almost all of them ended because of some difference in frumkeit. It took me awhile to rid myself of the false frumkeits of seminary teaching, and aruch hashem i am now happily married.

  15. your number 2 that guys take their time, what do you mean take their time they are patient or do you mean they dont rush in to marrying a girl they dont know? Vecause i think its a positive thing that people take their time. This way they get to know each other better and there would be less broken engagements and less divorces!

  16. Whoever you are you should have the guts to actually put your name. If you believe in what you are doing then at least put your name on the line and stand by your words. Only cowards write anonymous articles!

  17. 1> Hakadosh Baruch Hu is mezaveg zevugim, not statistics.

    2> Marriage quality and duration are more important than having people rush into inappropriate marriages to avoid becoming a statistic. By lying in a fundamental aspect of your marriage, the quality and duration deteriorate.

    3> Be broader minded when dealing with the shidduchim crisis. Another reason there are more girls than boys, is because there are MORE BOYS GOING OFF THE DERECH than girls. No convention will ever address this secret, because it opens up Pandora’s Box. But, with an honest look at our frum landscape you will see that the hot-button issue being dealt with by a N.Y. Assemblywoman has a tremendous impact on our “Shidduch Crisis”.

    When the frum community is willing to take SERIOUS measures to prevent other crisis’ from happening, Hashem will help the “Shidduch Crisis” from continuing.

    I rest my case.

  18. Is the following scenerio a crisis? To many 12 year old girls are single. No. Because there is nothing wrong with being single at age 12.
    I would like to argue that being single at 22 is not a crisis either. Thinking that thats a crisis can generate a panic in girls, resulting in them trying harder to get married at 19. In a way , looking at it as a crises makes the crisis worse. what other choice do we have? I dont know.

  19. While what i like to call the jewish media ,(Seminarys, Yeshivas) gives girls an unrealistic expectations of what to look for in a guy, The western media gives guys an unrealistic expectation of what to look for in a girl.(movies , billboards). While its hard to stop western culture from affecting us, we must do what we can to stop its effect. However, the jewish media we can control. We have to stop convincing our daughters that there are tons of future roshei yeshiva available for the taking.

  20. I don’t maintain that boys are ready at twenty. I think that if boys knew they could go to school (which may take a few years)/start working after getting a few solid years of learning behind them (which means they’re NOT twenty, they’re older) they would be happier and more productive in those years.

    You mention boys start dating later. Later than when? The last generation?

    A few things don’t computer.

  21. I like that the focus here is not placing the blame on anyone specific. until now everyone is just placing the blame on whomever is convenient for them . the mothers of girls saying that they dont have lists, boys blaming the lack of credible info . girls saying boys are to picky . you get the point. I dont know that this is the cause but its clear that whatever the cause is its societys fault not one particular group

  22. Using shadchanim creates the age gap, When you go through a shadchan you play the odds and and you date whoever sounds the best on paper, you end up being compelled to use superficial things as criteria like is the guy learning or working. Which yeshiva is he in. which seminary did she go to. etc. if your a boy and your choosing between a girl your age and one younger ,on a shallow level the younger sounds better,even if its not so. Conversly, if your a girl and your choosing between a guy your age and one older you may opt for the older one. if we didnt have shadchanim and people swapped numbers like in my time , then age wont play as big a role in peoples descisions.

  23. I know a Rebbi that was asked to leave mainly because he was encouraging some of his bochurim to go to work. What an unrealistic world we live in!

  24. Anything thats not a rich persons problem doesnt tend to get solved that quickly, because rich people have a strong influence on how society operates. Rich people like it when theres lots of learning. They want a budding talmid chacham as a son in law and why shouldnt they? They arent affected by the shidduch OR economic crisis They can support a son in law and their daughters always have dates. us regular folks have to get more involved.

  25. Isnt it Playing with fire to suggest that less girls should look for learning? Do you remember Back when learners had a hard time getting dates?

  26. For those of you who dont know me i used to cheer up patients. The doctors were focused on keeping them alive and i focused on making them happy to be alive. Instead of only focusing on getting everyone married Lets also turn our attention to Making the people that GET married happy. I dont necessarily see the connection between this learning thing and the age gap, but i definitely see it contributing to bad marriages.

  27. Chicago nailed it!!

    I would like to crunch some more numbers, for those who think 20 year old serious learners should all start dating.

    If you look at the 50 – 60ish roshei yeshiva and rabbonim, the really wonderful solid ones, MANY of them learned for 5 years (which now is considered “short term” by many) and started working, as rabbeim, etc. Say they were 22 or 23 when they got married. That means they were learning about 10 -11 years full time post high school (they graduated at 17). IOW, our klei kodesh will benefit from about 10 years learning post high school.

    Now you’re saying that these boys should start going out at 20?!?!? Necessitating even MORE support, which is crippling our other mosdos (anyone ever hear of tuition crisis?). It is in the best interest of many of our boys to start going out later, and to be sure that they are resourceful enough to accept the responsibilities of marriage once they’ve broken that glass, but I think that “chanoch l’naar al pi darko” has long fallen by the wayside.

  28. Tsippy i agree with most of what you post on matzav in general but if the guys who should be working did then we wouldnt have such a problem supporting them would we?

  29. Im sure “CHICAGO” is a lady. Only women fail to understand that even though hashem runs the world, he gives us bechira also

  30. REPULSED: when you daven to avinu shebashmayim that everyone should find their bashert are you davening for a nes or are you davening for the untimely demise of hundreds of girls? either way your frumkeit is actually assur. and to TZIPI (hi again) a study on the subject was recently published at the behest of a number of rabbonim by an actuary and a math proffessor and the result is scary. you can get a copy if you have the right connections. the numbers have been crunched now something must be done.

  31. Whats funny is that all the girls are looking for the prized learning guy and if they hear that there are some guys out there who are not serious enough for them their reaction is to do better research. guess what? every step you take to finding out about him, he will take five stEps to protect his image! and were back to square one. maybe consider a working ben torah? some things are more important to marriage than learning full time. i know you think youll get learning and a good husband. (there definitely ARE many of those) but not everyone gets that.So whats happening is MANY GIRLS ARE EFFECTIVELY CHOOSING LEARNING OVER PERHAPS MORE IMPORTANT QUALITIES.

  32. Why must girls continue to be indoctrinated in seminaries? Why cant we just leave the children alone and let them grow and become their own healthy human beings? WHY?

  33. if you are a person with depth, a growing person, a person who wants to reach a clear and true understanding of the world around you, then u would appreciate this article! Thank you political scientist!

  34. In response to “hey”
    You write ever so eloquently about the cowardly act of writing something and not publishing your name.
    Considering that you signed off as “hey” you either are a hypocritical coward, or your parents had a horrible sense of humor when they named you that.

  35. With a name like tsippy ( girls name)you probably dont know any more about learning than the girls on the market who claim to be looking for it. OUCH! So please dont tell me ill be happier doing it. I know i sound farbissen and thats because i am.

  36. Glad to see there is a general concurrence that the problem lie in the age gap. Although the writer is dead wrong on a number of issues, I am glad to see that we understand that the solution lie in figuring out ways to encourage more marriaged betwween 22.5 year old boys and 21 yr old girls. And fewer marriages between 23 yr old boys and 19 yr old girls.

    First area where writer is dead wrong about is #2. Just taking BMG for example (that is the single largest conglomerate of dating boys in the US) Withing 3 yrs of coming to BMG almost all the boys are married. After 5 years there are less than 2% of boys still around.

    That is the equivalent of 24 yr old girls. (having dated 5 yrs) Sadly to say the percentages of 19 yr olds that are still single at 24 is somewhere in the 15-20% range.

    Clearly the boys get married quickly (to girls) and yet all to many girls get stuck.

    These numbers are substantiated across the orthodox spectrum.


    Clearly the boys get married, and they get married very very quickly.

  37. Since you are alleging that there are not enough potential marriage partners available, should not your formula be an inequality [indicated by instead of =]?

    By the way, people are conceived of as individuals (not only by our Torah and culture, by also grammatically). Therefore “amount” does not apply. Rather “number” applies.

  38. To a person: even if all the boys who should be working were, why would that make it any easier for someone facing bankruptcy or foreclosure to support a learning boy? Are you talking about communally? Things have changed so much.

  39. This article is excellent common sense. However, what it describes has been known by many people for quite some time. The difference is that the writer has the courage to say it out loud.

    As many posters have observed, one of the major problems is that a “working boy” is considered beyond the pale by most girls, who are terrified that if they “settle” for less than “first class” that they will be somehow diminished personally.

    Another problem is the parents – the need for status through their girls’ shidduchim, and the fear (perhaps justified) that if one of their daughters “settles” for a “sub-standard” boy that the shidduchim of all the younger girls will be jeopardized.

    We need a statement that supports those boys who go to work while at the same time being kovea ittim and learning seriously after work. Instead, what we frequently get are proclamations about the primacy of learning without taking into consideration Pirkei Avos’ “Im ain kemach ain Torah.”

    Incidentally, how many boys have gone off the derech because of the anguish and duplicity that accompany the shidduch process?

  40. To Ouch: all I can say, is OUCH, you’re right and I haven’t had time to get on and apologize to you and anyone else in your situation. My thinking was that if boys knew that they would have permission to leave when they needed to, some of these guys would probably have the menuchas hanefesh they need to find some geshmack in learning.

    But again, I want there to be a framework for guys like you, who should not feel disenfranchised from the olam haTorah, who can feel respected for being ehrlich on the jobs, showing up for minyan, and contributing to the community if the situation arises. There’s a lot in the current system is working against this.

  41. Yup, because only the couples with mesiras nefesh would do it, its not about the support its more about the high/low maintenance

  42. AG , i dont think you read the letter very closely. you pick BMG when the writer clearly says that both A and B girls are going for A’s! Obviously the BMG guys are going to have it easier!
    Also, you compare the 27 year old guys to the 24 year old girls! This doesnt prove that boys take quicker! It just proves that boys generally get married! You youself say (in previous posts) a big percentage of girls dont get married – Hashem yiracheim! If you wanted to prove that boys take shorter look at MARRIED guys and MARRIED girls and se when they got married! Be fair!

  43. To: Ben sion yerushalayim,

    If you would write the formula as an unequality, it would take a few more steps.also, it would only demonstrate that there are more girls,while the said formula is able to compute the exact ratio of boys to girls

    Your second point however is 100% true

  44. Sorry Tsippy for lashing out last night

    It doesn’t bother me that i have so few options. I rather be an ‘9’ and marry a ‘6’ than be a ‘2’ and marry a 10 and bring her down.

    What bothers me is what ‘musing’ touched on, that the girls set of values is so warped that its very scary to be on the market , which might explain why ‘LEAH’ feels that boys are so

    Its sad that in order to get a date i have to be PERFECT in every other category ie; davening midos etc. When my friends in yeshiva can be far from it. I’m not gonna lie and say i learn more than them, I definitely don’t, but I can assure you that if i did i would still have it much harder.

  45. Its not the girls fault for having warped hashkafahs and its not yeshiva systems fault for limiting the boys. If boys would stop being so superficial a lot of things would fall into place.

  46. Critic:

    #1 I used BMG as an illustration. Speak to SYAS YU connect, Invei Hagefen Gateways etc. etc. They will all tell you there are sigificantly more older girls than guys.

    #2 “Also, you compare the 27 year old guys to the 24 year old girls! This doesnt prove that boys take quicker! It just proves that boys generally get married!”


    I don’t follow your logic. If the dating class of boys that started 5 yrs ago and 5 years later only 2% are left, obviously they get married relatively quickly. If we take from that same period of 5 yrs ago the girls that started then and 5 yrs later (age 24 since they start at 19) well over 15% are still single this should tell us something????


  47. I can hear you already, “what does it matter what a man thinks of Seminary?” the answer is harsh but true. It matters a great deal, because we are the ones who have to pick up the pieces.

    Chas V’shalom none of us are against the lofty ideals espoused and theoretically taught in seminary. I would love to see our sisters and daughters in those theoretical seminaries. The fact is, however that until seminaries are what some seem to think they are, I will do all I can to keep my daughters out of them.

    The reasons are simple:

    Men currently spend many years for each year their wives were in seminary deprogramming them, and even that never really undoes the damage. A person’s job is to live their life for Hashem, not for Torah. If Hashem wants a man to spend his life serving him in some other field then Klei Kodesh, that man certainly does not need his Ezer K’negdo crying that he is not spending all his time learning. Nor do we need our wives having no appreciation for the G-dly task of raising a family.

    Why am I the first one to tell my wife that the reason she is not obligated to do many of the mitzvos is because her life is intrinsically more holy and she does not need to do all that us men need to do to bring us closer to Hashem?

    Do you think we appreciate hearing our wives moan that they didn’t daven well this Yom Kippur because they had to take care of the kids? I hate to say it, but if that is how you feel, there are other religions that feel that way as well and perhaps you should consider joining a monastery. Raising children (and that does not mean having a “goita” take them so that you can daven more, or working full time so that your husband can learn) is as holy a calling as there is and our womenfolk are being robbed of a meaningful life by those that claim to be adding meaning to their lives.

  48. How about some real tangible effective practical suggestions how to encourage more shidduchim between boys 22.5 – girls 21, and fewer 23-19

    Presently the average age of boys returning from learning in yeshivish stlye yeshivos Mir, Brisk, Rav Zvi Kaplan etc. is 22.5 with many first returning at 23+.

    1. If yeshivos would set a age limit on returning boys from EY. Starting with a cutoff of 23 and slowly moving down to 22.5. It would create a situation were boys are starting to date 6 months younger.

    2. (In yeshivos were boys are not allowed to date when they first come)

    If come Tu B’shvat/Tamuz boys are only permitted to date girls 21 and older, and to date younger girls a boy must wait till after the zeman, then boys will have a strong incentive to date girls their own age.

    3. Do not redd shidduchim to girls who are just coming home from sem. There are plenty of girls 20-24 that will have all the qualities that THAT boy needs.

    The net result of such actions will be far greater close in age shidduchim without any real major change to the system as is.

    Lets get to work on closing the age gap without any ridiculous radical changes that will never happen

  49. 20 years ago the girls wanted doctors and thats what the boys became. today the girls want boys who are registered in a yeshiva.

  50. lets talk about the crisis – crisis. there were always problems in history. i would argue many worse than the ones today . just today everything is a crisis

  51. Repulsed:- its time you practiced being a dot more openminded. You cant chop your head off and then pray that you stay alive

  52. This article is fantastic, but he left out one very important equation that causes there to be too many single girls, not enough single guys: IT IS EASIER TO BE A GOOD GIRL THAN TO BE A GOOD GUY!

    In order for a boy to be considered a “catch” in the Yeshiva shidduch market, he has to have gone to a great yeshivah for High School, then spent 4 years learning Yomam Valayla in a top Beis Medrash program, then has to go off to Israel and get into a top Yeshiva (Reb Dovid, Reb Tzvi, etc…), spend a whole bunch of years there, come back to America and go sit in the freezer in Lakewood, etc.
    A girl can go to any out of town Girls High School in America, because then she spends one year in a good seminary, comes home and is nice to all the old ladies and helps them cross the street, and- BOOM!- immediately she’s an “amazing girl”, “such absolutely wonderful middos!”, such a “gem”. She frums out a drop over the 12 months of tiyulim and brainwashing, and all of a sudden she’s looking to marry the top guy in Lakewood who worked for 13 years to get there.
    When it’s easier to be a good girl than to be a good guy, you’ll find that there are thousands of good girls out there, and not enough good guys. The truth is most of those girls who are shopping for that same guy aren’t really deserving of him anyway, so who are they fooling. These girls consider themselves to chashuv to be marrying the guys they are really better suited for, so they are causing themselves the crisis.

  53. Im sad that even though this created a stir the point of this letter will fade into a dull rememberance of the past.

    By moving more to the left we will move more to the right.

    Denial is human beings biggest fallacy.

  54. “A mans view of seminary” is aptly placed in between AG and AZ’s blasphemous comments. (whom apparently are different names for the same person) Go ahead, sweep it under the rug.

    Your a one trick pony. you think that encouraging closer in age shidduchim is the answer

    Guess what? you are fighting a losing battle.

    guys like younger girls.

    girls like older guys.

    I rest my case.

  55. The gemara that hashem says who is marrying who should not be misconstrued to mean that hashem doesnt at times give us some control of our destiny.

  56. To: guys like younger girls, girls like older guys.

    Guys like younger girls for sure, but younger girls compromise!!! and date older guys. Only a tiny minority prefer it.

    Shuey, are you saying that if Gedolim who the guys respect will strongly encourage same/similar age Shidduchim, the guys will stop getting married? I DONT think so.

  57. To Ben: don’t underestimate the girls. To get into a good sem you have to have been a very solid citizen, which means years of consistent pressure and work. BUT you make a good point. It IS easier to be a good girl. Girls have outlets and other possibilities for building the competence needed for a good self esteem; they don’t have to have the same level of zitzfleish.

    And when the boys get the names of these truly excellent, wonderful girls, the girls do all tend to sound the same – chessed head, dance head, sem X, etc. I appreciate how hard a time the girls are having in shidduchim.

  58. Critic: please read before commenting.

    The average guy is married is LESS than ONE year that is very quick. 5 years is the time by when almost EVERY last one is marred.



    totally irrelevant regarding why so many girls have no one to marry because


    BY and large ALL the boys are getting married.


    I appreciate the chizuk.

    BYTW the NASI Project reports that there have been hundreds of close on age shidduchim as a result of the awareness being created. Clearly there are guys who are willing to date girls their own age.

  59. Any ideas on how the Klal (those who don’t have sons) can encourage an increase in the amount of same/similar age Shidduchim?

    What would it take to get (more) Gedolim/Rabbonim/Askonim involved?

  60. Also Repulsed At Repulsed:

    See the Post June 11 5:22 pm for a few very pracitcal effecive close the age gap suggestions.

    Regarding Askonim:

    Sad to say but many of them don’t feel the acute pain as their daughters are the girls on the island that DO get dates. When it doesn’t hurt it’s hard to cry. (I know this first hand because I have spoken to many many of them who just don’t GET IT!!!)

    The Klal MUST make a concerted effort to continue to bring it their attention and beg them to implement age gap reducing ideas.

  61. Az i totally agree with you. great wording also .(its hard to cry etc…) notice that people who start organisations tend to have unfortunately experienced related suffering. Also your right about the age gap being the main focus. and changing the system is hocus pocus!

  62. AZ:

    If Askonim don’t feel the pain, how do we get Gedolim/Rabbonim to act on this?

    The ideas mentioned 6/11 5:22 are great, but unless Gedolim/Rabbonim are behind it, it’s a fantasy. I almost feel like it’s Kdai to start a letter-writing campaign to Gedolim/Rabbonim.

    IN so many homes there’s sadness when there’s an older single (not by choice). “Imo Anochi b’tzarah—I (G?d) am with him in his troubles,” G?d’s empathic caring, so to speak, is an essential trait for us to emulate.

  63. Ben:
    Ben, no no no ….”In order for a boy to be considered a “catch” in the Yeshiva shidduch market…

    he has to wear a white shirt and be a Talmid at any Yeshiva not for At Risk kids. Period!!!!

    While girls, have to study for OT, PT or PA, so they have to study their heads off, be no larger than a size 2, so they have to starve, and have parents who play the “Askan” game, which is totally beyond their control, or they’re considered undesirable and DOOMED.

  64. Aviva:

    Thanks for the chizuk.

    Letter writing campaign?

    GO FOR IT.

    You have no idea of the power of the individual. I know the people who are involved in the NASI Project. It’s amazing what a small group of motivated people with proper guidance can do.

    GO FOR IT.

    (and encourage your friends w/ boys in shidduchim to date girls their own age.

  65. True that girls ( that arent rich and pretty) have it pretty hard. but to say guys dont have it hard cause they just have to be in yeshiva misses The point of the letter. almost all boys are in a setting more demanding than what they are cut out for. long term learners should be short term. short should be part time part time should be kovea itim. working boys should have left yeshiva even earlier. of course i am generalizing but i have to for the point of this comment lol . you say that girls have to work hard. better that then waste your time and try to stay sane. like boys.

  66. To “To :yougottabekidding”

    “better that then waste your time and try to stay sane. like boys.”???????

    I beg to differ. I know enough about the Shidduch market, to say with total clarity, that even guys who go out to work before marriaage, as long as they have a good reputation, are highly sought after by many many fine frum girls. Not all fine frum good firls want only learning boys. The good working guys get plenty of amazing girls to date too.

  67. I hope there are no hard feelings. I am a working boy and somehow these ‘ fine frum girls ‘ tend to be a dot less ‘fine’ or a dot less ‘frum’ than the girls i was dating when i was in lakewood. there are exceptions and hopefully ill marry one. but you cant ignore that while girls may have it very very hard, boys-both learning and working – also have it hard. ( like the new A TIME song -” no one is spared” )

  68. re:I am a working boy and somehow these ‘ fine frum girls ‘ tend to be a dot less ‘fine’ or a dot less ‘frum’ than the girls i was dating when i was in lakewood….


    I know very many reallllllllllly fine and frum girls who just aren’t victims of the indoctrination of their Seminaries, or whose parents don’t go for it, or who with time, got removed from Seminary, see what the real world is all about as far as paying bills and how it affects Shalom Bayis and a variety of other reasons,WHO DATE WORKING BOYS, and plenty of these great fine frum girls.

    Often they’re more mature as well and not sleepwalking through life.

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