Dear Matzav Inbox,
I am writing this because I honestly cannot take the hypocrisy anymore.
We scream about tznius all day long. Every speech, every assembly, every school handbook, every parent meeting, every article. Sleeve lengths. Sock lengths. Necklines. Colors. Fabrics. Shoes. Tights. Pictures. Catalogs. The conversation never ends.
Tznius, tznius, tznius, tznius.
And yes, of course tznius matters. Nobody is questioning that.
But can we finally have the courage to talk about the giant elephant sitting in the middle of the frum world that everyone sees and nobody wants to acknowledge?
What is going on in frum offices between men and women is becoming a massive crisis.
Not every office. Not every person. But enough that people know exactly what I am talking about.
Men and women spending entire days together. Constant texting. Inside jokes. Emotional dependence. Friendly conversations that stopped being innocent a long time ago. Private meetings. Late-night communication that somehow gets justified because it’s “for work.” Married people sharing more emotional energy with coworkers than with their own spouses.
And everybody pretends not to notice because everyone needs parnassah.
So we keep screaming about a teenager’s sweater while ignoring environments that are literally destroying marriages, destroying shalom bayis, destroying emotional boundaries, and slowly eating away at people spiritually.
Where are the speeches about that?
Where are the emergency gatherings and kol korehs about that?
Where are the articles warning people that emotional closeness is not less dangerous because it happens in an office with fluorescent lighting and spreadsheets?
We have somehow created a world where a girl can be treated like a walking michshol because her socks slipped down half an inch, while a married man spending eight hours a day emotionally attached to another woman is called “professional.”
Since when?
And the saddest part is that many frum workplaces almost force this environment. Team bonding. Casual culture. Endless interaction. After-hours communication. People laughing and talking together all day in ways that previous generations would never have considered normal.
Then everyone acts shocked when marriages suffer, when people become emotionally confused, when lines get crossed, or when things spiral into places they should never have gone.
We are terrified of talking honestly because we are afraid people will accuse us of being extreme or unrealistic.
But pretending there is no problem is not righteousness. It is denial.
If we truly care about kedushah, then let us care about all of it, not only the parts that are easy to measure with a ruler.
Because right now, it feels like we are obsessing over the packaging while ignoring the fire burning inside the building.
Sincerely,
See It Every Day
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While the “non jewish work environment” has its own challenges, the natural boundaries between jews and non jews create a shmira that no frum office can ever create.
If your socks slipped half an inch, or, your skirt is half a shade to light, consider working among non jews. Sure, men will be faced with pritzus every day, but, in the eyes of the average non jews, that is normal behavior. You wont become attached, the late night calls will go away, the eating out as a team is non existent and your marriage wont suffer.
Well, according to the hustlers who are pushing the age-gap hoax, all they care about is the numbers of those getting married? Divorce is meaningless to these crooked fraudsters. Just keep shaking down these ignorant gullible gvirim for a few dollars.
You could have written the same letter without bashing all the very important awareness about tznius guidelines.
Agreed.
Why the need to bash the important lessons in tznius that apply to all girls & women?
You want more? Kol Hakovod. Get our Rabbonim involved.
They only get involved once you create a tumult shaking the public
And the public only get shaken when you write something outrageous
Very well written and said. What’s your name so I can congratulate you personally and sing your praises? Why are you afraid to attach a name to the truth smashing us all like a freight train?
are you serious? The only way to say something is to put a name so now every nudnik who knows you can hock you up to agree or disagree?
What happened to “Kabel emes m’mi sh’omro”?
you can debate or agree on an idea without the persons name.
Exactly. When the Chofetz Chaim wrote his sefer anonymously, did they reject it based on that?
There is a book out there by Rabbi Shmiel Neiman, about how a frum office should be run. I think it is called something like – Nine to Five.
Take a look.
Wow, you said it really well, I agree with this fully
It’s all about chitzonius. Whatever it takes to get that top tiered shidduch with the besereh menschen. If you’re a poor gullible shlepper, then you have to make a shavuah on a sefer Torah that no one in your family, including the great grandparents, ever owned a smartphone or even touched someone else’s. If not, than your children will not be excepted in any local Yeshivos. In the meantime the administrators are busy chasing skirts. Everything opposites. Dimyonos. Just keep wearing that white shirt and shukle that unique way during shmoneh esrei, and you’ll be accepted into the inner circles of everything important.
A perfectly valid notice that Klal Yisroel is failing in setting priorities. However, it is sad that generalizations are given far too much recognition, as if this is the gospel truth. It is true, that the appropriate barriers for interactions between genders have slipped, and that these spell trouble for marriages. These same issues create a gap of kedusha that reaches all around, including one’s avodas Hashem. What irked me in this post was the insinuation that the trouble with marriages stems from these outside interests, all attributable to working relationships that veer into forbidden territory. Wrong. That can and does happen, but there are too many other factors that weaken and destroy marriages. Without discussion, let’s list a few.
1. Unrealistic expectations of what marriage should be.
2. Personality incompatibility
3. Meddling families
4. Poor advice
5. Underlying individual psychological issues
6. Secrets
7. Inadequate and misleading preparation prior to marriage
8. Cultural issues
9. Poor problem solving
10. Primitive or negative communication
11. Support systems that worsen the wedge between spouses
This list is just partial. Just to state the obvious, the three cardinal reasons cited for divorce, which are either amplified or fabricated are: In-laws, money, and intimacy. These are usually symptoms, and are decoys that lead the untrained advisors into wrong directions that help no one.
to “Voice of Reason” – – I’m shocked at your response. Not a voice of reason at all. The letter writer NEVER said this is THE Cause, nor did she/ he say this is the Majority of the causes. Nor did it say it ALWAYS causes. Of course there are myriad other reasons why marriages are affected – nobody insinuated otherwise! But to dismiss this very important topic (and extremely well written letter) because “oh but you’re generalizing as if it’s for sure true” is absolutely “head in the sand” mentality. Perhaps you haven’t witnessed or observed any of which the letter portrays, but it is EXTREMELY valid. Just the other day my single 19 year old daughter said her single friend told her she’s shocked because in her workplace a married woman and married man “schmooze improperly and lightheartedly” (she used a more descriptive word). Imagine then, that after work each goes home to their respective spouses to deal with “real life.” How could that emotional and “fun” connection just experienced all day at work NOT affect their emotional connection to their own spouse at home? And can’t you see that eventually that may in turn start affecting who they are most eager to see each day and whose company they enjoy? Who they feel attracted to? Call it what it is and stop dismissing this as if to say “come off it! there are bigger problems.”
Go back and read the comment. No denial at all. Just the nudge that we tend to attribute causality without attending to the full picture. The inappropriate behavior described in the post would be far less if everyone was happier at home, with no interest in looking elsewhere. Also noted is that this behavior can impact even a solid marriage. But it doesn’t rate among the most destructive forces to marriage. Fixing the stated problem would accomplish much for the involved individuals. But it would not dent the divorce industry (therapists, coaches, toanim, rabbinim, dayanim, and various social supports). It does address a sliver of the picture. Check with rabbonim or dayanim.
Tznius and Shomer negiah are not mutually exclusive. If one is not careful in Tznius, he or she will not be careful in keeping boundaries in an office environment. I work with goyim and am very careful how I dress and how I interact with men; careful to keep our conversations business focused and never shake hands. What is upsetting is when other frum women who I work with are not on the same page.
I will make this short. It can, and does, happen. It takes emotional maturity, and strength of character, to admit to oneself, privately, yes I have feelings for XYZ. Jewish or not Jewish, frum or not frum if Jewish. It’s not the feelings that are the problem, it’s the wrong response that is. A person must tell themselves, I have to get over this challenge. In a different way, Yosef Hatzadik had this challenge, but he successfully overcame it. It may take time, it can hurt, it may not be easy, but dealing with this the right way will give you sipuk hanefesh you never imagined you could have. Along with spiritual growth, and a future warning if the problem ever crops up again, with anyone. Not because this happened to me, but I’ve known someone who had this problem and overcame it.
Something called boundries. If you have them then this is not a thing
I totally get it
I worked in an office where the frum boss was a real creep
I don’t want to hear your stupid jokes or have you unwind about your life
Talk to your wife to your friends or keep it to yourself
BH I left
I hope he seeks therapy
You are making a true point, and I will say it clearer. The hypersensitization of tznius by measuring skirts and smartphones is a cover up for real issues. The loud “Kol Korahs” are a distraction, and a way of feeling good while struggling with issues. (I don’t Chas Veshlom mean the rabbanim who “sign” the Kol Korah. I am referring to the individuals that write them up and either ask the rav to sign or just forge the rav’s signature). In Europe the mesorah was the bigger kanai (in these areas) the farther away you stayed.
This! The author of this article should get a standing ovation!! Thank you for saying what has not exactly been ignored but not taken very seriously!! Thank you for speaking up for all those who are suffering and unknowingly suffering not knowing that their spouse has a friend aka emotional friend other than their spouse who many times take precedence.
Unfortunately we’re too busy with the wigs to notice something way more fired.
…but would just like to note that today’s extremely realistic shaitels give any normal man the impression that either she’s not married or that she prefers to look unmarried.
Even more, the glamour shaitels give any normal man even more of the wrong type of impression. Some women also unwittingly dress and behave a certain way, combined with this type of shaitel.
Even though the frum woman absolutely does not intend or want to give this impression (but rather she says, “I’m wearing this shaitel to make ME feel good about MYSELF!”), it nonetheless does and isn’t a separate issue from the extramarital connections.
the women aren’t as innocent [as they feign to insist]
Spot on! Absolutely true. I have had both single and married women who were completely inappropriate and disregarded all boundaries. It is a miracle that I never ended up in real trouble. Some practically aishes potiphar situations were very acutely presented. The Frumest of the Frum backgrounds yet totally out of line.
There is a daily email that has been pointing at this elephant for years. Sign up at doeihu.org and spread the word.
1000% agree. I’ve been receiving Doeihu emails for a couple a years and find them both practically very helpful and interesting.
They also tend to be very short, for those who don’t feel like reading a whole essay.
this really needs a long answer ..the other side of the coin; some points by a regular working yungerman for 25 yrs now inc. female workers …
1. despite the intense pull of arayos , bh klal yisroel is amazing even in this area, now before you jump let me explain
2. how high a bar is the relative question, the torah sets a very high level for one to grow in to yet there is credit and schar even for basics. in short there are 2 points , the level of aveira and the nisayon for that individual ( as an example the same aveira ; if done by someone who is divorced or in a terrible marraige, or struggling w/ a mood disorder etc.. is a much smaller onesh than a avg yid in a regular situation..
3 if your “elephant in the room” is counting affairs or even negiya among frum employees its is almost nil… if you mean jokes , closeness, personal disclosure etc..which is natural unless a person is actively on guard yes we all are trying to be better but even on that level most are far better than u think ( and there are numerous tzadikim who are older singles , divorcess, almons, married to dysfunctional partner..etc…WHO RISE AND ARE MECHAZEK beyond human kochos to stay erlich ( as far as speeches there is hashkafa in the worklpalce, h3 summits, bell works months ago for woman
and credit also to noshim who are erlich and are trying to balance and juggle it all and still attemt to come home to a husband that is far less charming or capable as compared to the big boys in the office and still “GO” and act gracious
rav avigdor miller zatzl a goan in pshat- asks why on yom kipur by mincha the holiest moments of the year right before neila we take out the torah and WHAT DO WE LAIN? arayos in all its forms ?!!! HUH NOW?? so much more to say …
We must listen to daas Torah and we will be fine
either your a mentch or your not ! and that goes for all anti social behavior or actions that harm, disrupt, or disregard the well-being of others (spouses) and violate societal norms
Someone already mentioned doeihu.org and their daily emails.
In addition to their daily emails which contain chizuk and halachos, they also have “fact sheets” on how things are supposed to be in the office, which can be used for general employee training.
As the victim of a wife who became completely emotionally dependent on another frum man from the workplace I could attest that this is 100% true. It put a very large family on the verge on complete collapse.
Our community needs to deal with this asap. Being in the “parsha” and talking to people, this is a massive problem. What starts to feel like a shalom bayis issue is really your spouse being highjacked by someone at work and you are completely blindsided.
Credit to the author for raising awareness. As was already noted in the comments, the message could be conveyed more effectively if presented for what it is, without harping so much on the “contrast” of being OCD on skirt lengths. Another thing to bring into better focus is that the level of nisayon between two frum people, sharing a common culture, is greater than between Yehudi and aino-Yehudi. FYI – already 45 years ago a noted Rov in Baltimore shlit”a insisted that frum men and women working in the same office should only refer to each other as Mr./Rabbi/Mrs./Ms., using surnames and never first names. Making interactions more formal is a very wise geder to implement. It’s unnatural – and initially people will make fun of those who follow it – but that’s the point.
Noted Rov in Baltimore didn’t make it up.
It’s brought down in numerous places:
Ben Yehoyada Sotah 2a Igra D’Kallah, Lech Lecha 17:15 Taz, EH 21; Igra D’Kallah, Bereishis 17:15; Gur Aryeh, Vayikra 1:1; Levushah Shel Torah ch. 81
Thanks for reinforcing that this is far from a new issue. It existed long before anyone ever measured a skirt. The Torah itself understands human nature and provides guidance on how to enact safeguards. It’s up to us to be attuned to the Torah’s messages and lessons – and/or acquire a Rov to show us the way, as dictated by Pirkei Avos – and follow them. Otherwise, the world is a jungle with slim chances of survival.
Not sure where you’re working but where I work, nobody is going to stay late at the office to justify shmoozing with a female coworker.
You’re a ostrich.
These matters could also be helped by the expectations of the workplace. B”H, I work for a company that has very careful gedarim in place as the cultural expectations of the office. People are referred to by Mr./Mrs./Miss.; there are separate lunches/meals for women and men at separate times, etc. and the company HR devotes a lot of sensitivity and attention towards safeguarding the important gedarim of tznius. If everyone is highly attentive to the potential pitfalls of the myriad workplace nisyonos – that certainly would help everyone keep in check during the minute-to-minute workplace interactions that take place.
By high school, girls can barely stand hearing about it and it rarely comes up after high school because FFB women can no longer tolerate it.
No one talks about tsniyus and I wish they would, but most women refuse to tolerate any discussion of it. You see it on their face; they totally shut down. It’s too bad it wasn’t always addressed in a positive and inspiring manner when they were young.
Skirt lengths and other halachos actually matter a lot and, as another commenter stated, should not be dismissed.
If you want someone who understands how to talk to girls and women about tsniyus in a compelling, refreshing, positive, friendly, intelligent, and insightful way, you should get ahold of Yaffa Palti.
Okay. I’ll call her as soon as Shabbos is over bl”n.