The Matzav Shmoooze: We Must Stop the Meshugaim

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vaccineDear Editor,

Rabbosai, we have meshugaim out there who aren’t vaccinating their kids and are trying to get other people to follow their insanity. We must stop this now. It has already gotten too far. All of us normal, healthy-thinking people must band together and end the nuttiness. Feel free to share your suggestions.

The one idea I have thought of is to proclaim that we will absolutely not do shidduchim with people who do not vaccinate. If the normal people of Klal Yisroel join together and announce that we will not consider a shidduch with the queer people who are against immunizations and think they know better than everyone else, we might be able to stop this very dangerous campaign in its tracks.

Let’s not be intimidated. Our health is at stake.

Ready to Take Action


The Matzav Shmoooze is a regular feature on that allows all readers to share a thought or analysis, long or short, one sentence or several paragraphs long, on any topic, for readers to mull over and comment on. Email submissions to [email protected].

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  1. What are you hacking a tschinick? Vaccination is a new craze that does nothing to stop illness. Plenty of people that vaccinate get sick other ways, its all byad Hashem. IMind your own business and get on with your life, dont force your way of life on others

  2. Imagine if you had a child who had seizures or suddenly started regressing right after recieving shots, wouldn’t you start looking to see if maybe immunizing is not the best thing for children?? babies?? most people who don’t immunize have a story like this in their family. it’s not from nowhere because they are “Queer” it’s because they got burnt!! Hashem should watch all of us and we should ALWAYS STAY BE’ACHDUS AS A CHOSEN NATION whether or not we choose to immunize or not.

  3. Dear letter-writer,

    are you currently in shidduchim? Are your children currently shidduch aged? I’m pretty sure they aren’t.

    I agree something should be done. I also agree that people are doing some very dangerous actions over here. They must be stopped.

    If someone is a Shabbos desecrator, but has a child who became a true tzadik or tzaddekes, should someone refrain from marrying them because of the parents’ irresponsible actions?

  4. You seem to know nothing about this yourself. Before i begin ur title is very disrespectful, there r many very choshuve families which do not vaccinate thier children and theres a good reason for it…for example on lakewood everyones going crazy over the whooping cough, an d how everyone has to vaccinate thier kids and look how dangerous it can be, pardon me but the kids in lakewood with the whooping cough (may they have a refuah shelaima b’karov) were vaccinated themselves. and if ur into vaccinating ur kids then why would it bother u if others dont, it doesnt effect ur kids bec ur kids are vaccinated. so start being more considerate to others , if u hear of people not doing it b4 u say something look into thier family , is there a big line of autism or the such which may very weel be why the parents r reluctant to do it (as was the case of a family i just met in Lakewood).

  5. I hate to burst your bubble but every group thinks they are the “normal people of klal yisroel”. until someone comes up with a litmus test to determine “normal” this will never be resolved.

  6. I agree that not vaccinating is foolish and dangerous to every child. However, I do wonder how many parents who are not vaccinationg have children of shiddach age?

    Another possible solution is that children who are not vaccinated are not allowed in schools. All children must present to the schools dates of their children shots. If they cannot do that, then they are not in school.

  7. The worse danger is people who don’t vaccinate because it’s too much bother/cost, but manage to get certificates anyway so their kids can enroll in school. I heard a reliable story 15 years ago of this happening at one yeshiva in Boro Park, and I suspect there may be more. And of course since then the New York area has had epidemics of childhood diseases that should have been prevented.

    Laws about vaccination aren’t just goyishe mishugass that no chareidi need follow. The risk to your own and others’ children is immense. It isn’t even a matter of dina d’malchusa dina. It’s a matter of pikuach nefesh.

  8. People dont understand that the reason why we dont see certain diseases that often is because everyone else is vacinated. This is not a valid excuse. If we all stop getting vaccinated, the diseases would be rampant. There are reasons why vaccines were created. They are dangerous diseases.yes, maybe your grandmother had all of those disease and she is perfectly fine, but not everyone gets so lucky. By people relying on others people to get vaccinated, herd immunity, diseases may come back, like pertusis, and haunt you.
    DONT BE SELFISH!!!!!!!!
    NOT INGNORANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  9. Please vaccinate. It can have an effect others if you don’t.

    As far as those who have had a bad response to shots, then the doctor will either find some alternate way, or will say that this child can’t be vaccinated.

    If this is the case, then sadly, this child can’t go to camp or playgroup. School is a harder issue. But the rabbonim always say to listen to the doctor.

    We do deprive a person with a skin condition from using the mikvah. Why…for everyone else’s sake. Here too, for the sake of the other kids, we need to keep this child at a reasonable distance.

    Doctors aren’t bullies. But they have every right to refuse seeing patients who won’t follow their directions.

  10. The problem with children who are not vaccinated is that they can pass it on to infants that are too young to be vaccinated!! So yes, your older children may be safe because they received it, but children too young, with weak immune systems may not be able to fight it. And I believe that the children in Lakewood who contracted the whooping cough were too young to get vaccinated, so someone else’s older child who was not vaccinated could have passed it on to them.

  11. It’s distressing to see Yidden fall victim to quackery and put their children and their neighbors’ children at risk. We should be too smart for that.

  12. There are infants who are not yet vaccinated, there are children who can not be vaccinated due to real and serious health issues (your doctor will provide you with many examples), there are elders that were not vaccinated and have medical contraindications, and finally, vaccination is not magic, there is a few % of people who do not develop immunity, and they usually don’t know it. As long as the percentage of vaccinations stays high, this is not a problem.

    As for the tinfoil hats, I agree with #10, if our children marry them or do business with them or live next door from them, immunizations are going to be the smallest of our problems. Let’s stay away.

  13. How about some facts?

    13% of SIDS cases occur within 24 hours of a DTP shot. see:

    Children who received a hepatitis B vaccine have a 29% higher incident of juvenile onset diabetes at age ten.

    Once the vaccine schedule was 3, 6, & 9 months. It was found that children who were born to mothers who had been vaccinated instead of having the bug, have a weaker immune system. They were more susceptible to the diseases at a younger age so the vaccine schedule was changed to 2, 4,& 6 months.

    A Dr. Fred Klenner did a study in 1948 giving massive doses of vitamin C to children with polio. There was a zero incident of paralytic polio as apposed to 17% with the standard treatment.

    I one time had a long talk with a doctor who is a friend of mine. At one point he said to me that if a double blind placebo controlled study has not been done than it is not “science.” I then asked him if he could show me a double blind, placebo controlled long term study on vaccine safety and effectiveness. He said that he does not think that it would be ethical to do something like that. I then said to him that the whole vaccine program is then an uncontrolled human experiment being pushed on unknowing and sometimes unwilling people. At the implication of what I had just said he got this look of horror ion his face and said, “I need to get to the clinic.”

    As far as someone with my outlook having children on shiduchim, we have 4 married children and eight unvaccinated grandchildren.

  14. The main reason for the vaccines to be given to EVERYONE is to create HERD IMMUNITY.

    This is the definition:

    In contagious diseases that are transmitted from individual to individual, chains of infection are likely to be disrupted when large numbers of a population are immune or less susceptible to the disease. The greater the proportion of individuals who are resistant, the smaller the probability that a susceptible individual will come into contact with an infectious individual.
    Unvaccinated individuals are indirectly protected by vaccinated individuals, as the latter will not contract and transmit the disease between infected and susceptible individuals. Hence, a public health policy of herd immunity may be used to reduce spread of an illness and provide a level of protection to a vulnerable, unvaccinated subgroup. Since only a small fraction of the population (or herd) can be left unvaccinated for this method to be effective, it is considered best left for those who cannot safely receive vaccines because of a medical condition such as an immune disorder or for organ transplant recipients.

  15. ====13% of SIDS cases occur within 24 hours of a DTP shot====

    so 87% occured w/o the shot. i guess the DTP shot also prevents SIDS

  16. I also don’t feel so good about putting all this junk into my babies and children but I say that if this is the way Hashem set up this world today as we know it, where the norm is to go to a doctor for well care and to follow his directives (including vaccines which all doctors recommend), then I believe that this is what Hashem wants. And then to not follow the doctor is when you have the questions if you are doing the right thing by sort of being “poraitz geder”.

  17. And I know people who are crippled today because their mothers did not believe in the polio vaccine. They’re the lucky ones. The others did not make it.
    The doctor did not think it was ethical because that would knowingly leave half the kids at risk of the disease.
    Also even in the unusual case of a kid that contracts a disease that he’s been immunized for – he will get a lighter = less dangerous case.
    Yes, there are risks in vaccinations,but the risks of stopping the vaccinations is much much greater!!!
    So if you want to be a smart aleck, realize that you’re doing it on the back of all of us who take those risks to protect our children and yours.

  18. Attention #5, you ask:
    should someone refrain from marrying them because of the parents’ irresponsible actions?

    Read the last sentence to #20 for the answer to your question- Obviously this answer does not represent all children and grandchildren of the unvaccinated, but it does show that it is possible for it to be carried through, and this is something to clarify beforehand, if you are really bothered by it.

  19. The important thing to realize is,
    A) Only the MMR had any research that showed that vaccines cause autism and the Dr who performed the research lost his license because he was wrong.
    B) Nobody knows what causes autism, to blame it on vaccines is silly.
    C) If someone doesn’t have their children vaccinated, they can catch mumps from the kids. Mumps is scary as it can cause sterility among males.
    Please keep this in mind before deciding whether to vaccinate your children.

  20. to #6
    You are mistaken. One baby with whooping cough from Lakewood, the 8 month old, was NOT vaccinated. This is because he wasn’t well enough; his siblings ARE vaccinated. As for the 6 week old baby in Lakewood who also had whooping cough, highly unlikely a baby that age was already vaccinated.

  21. attn #20
    you cite the statistic of “13% of all sids occured within 24 hours of a DPT shot. ” According to the website, the amount of children per year in US that die from sids is 2500. The amount of babies born in US per yr is approx 4 million. That means .06% of babies born get sids. That’s a tiny tiny fraction (not to take away from the tragedy of each one). If 13% of those .06% deaths are caused by DPT shot, it means that the odds of this happening are miniscule. Everything in life requires a judgment whether the benefits are worth the risk. It seems to me like a no brainer that the benefit of eradicating polio etc. is worth a miniscule risk of these types of reactions from vaccinations. A person who steps outside takes a risk too, he can get hit by a car, lightning or a tree can fall on him. Life is full of such decisions.
    Furthermore, at the time when the polio epidemic was rampant, I don’t think anyone would have volunteered to be in a “controlled study” to compare vaccinations vs no vaccinations. Everyone wanted that vaccine no matter what. Ask someone who lived through those times.
    With regard to the high doses of vitamin C- even if it’s true that he was able to help cure polio with it, no where does it say that it prevented polio- like vaccinations do. It’s too dangerous to say “polio can be helped with vitamin c so let’s not bother preventing polio”. This cure doesn’t seem to apply to the many other fatal diseases that are prevented by vaccinations.
    If you read the website that you mentioned-, it is clear that these reactions are very extreme, and most doctors will say they are rare. This is not a reason to eliminate vaccinations. As we said everything has it’s risks and benefits. Lot’s of medical procedures are risky. The life expectancy today is longer than in recent history. You wouldn’t want to go back to the good ole 1800’s medically speaking.

  22. HAHAHA this is too funny to read. One Meshugana has an opinion that everyone who doesn’t agree with his opinion is a meshugana. So we are all Meshugoyim and therefore we can all do Shidduchim with each other.

    My doc for my kids is amazing and wants all the kids to have their shots but he agrees and understands there are some risks and therefore will continue to treat and love my family with whatever choice we make. After all he was with us for 24 hours when our oldest starting having convulsions after he got his first shot so our doc knows why we are scared about shots for all of our other kids. He still tells us to get them but he doesn’t think we are wrong or crazy for how we feel.

    hey maybe i can do a shidduch with his family because he doesn’t think im nuts and i think he is normal.

    I will work on this Shidduch now since according to the lunatic who wrote this post my kids have no other shot at finding a shidduch 🙂

  23. Nachum (#20)

    Please fully cite any peer-reviewed, published studies that support your “facts”. Anyone can assert things on a web page.

  24. You can compare results from before vaccines were available to afterwards. How many people died from diseases before hand compared to now. And how many people even if vaccinated get sick because of those who aren’t. I heard recently that India is almost polio free – do a google for it.

  25. It is obvious from the various comments that there are people that think both ways. It is absolutely inappropriate and completely wrong for anyone to put down anyone else for having a different opinion. To call people meshugoyim, to cause further machlokes with by further dividing klal yisrael is a much graver sin then not vaccinating your children. Let us not take this issue and turn into something that will further separate us. If you don’t understand why someone else would or wouldn’t vaccinate their children, why don’t you try to be dan lecaf zechus, try to understand where they are coming from, try to talk to them, ask they why they are doing this. Guess what? Most people care about their childrens health and safety. These people take responsibility for their childrens well being just like you do. You call them crazy because they have a different opinion on what constitutes “well being”. Why are they crazy for having a different opinion. If you bother to speak to them, you’ll hear that they have good, sound reason to do so. If you refuse to hear what they have to say and still go on calling them meshugoyim then you are simply being judgmental and biased. These people are backed by many other doctors and medical professionals, and scientific studies. You can choose not to research these claims yourself, but you absolutely cannot put them down so harshly and ostracize them from the community!

  26. Vaccines have eradicated some of the worst diseases we have ever faced. Small pox, Polio, etc. Its a proven fact that vaccination works.

    Nevertheless the antivaccine groups continue to rally around a discredited doctor and falsified research in the face of unimpeachable research!

    And then they ignore straight up halacha and say that they don’t have to rely in science for refuah… How many cardiologists and specialists are currently working round the clock for R’Elyashiv? for what – why not just sit around the bed and say Tehillim? Why do we need the Doctors?

    And the kicker… contrast the incomprehensible babble of the anti vaccine group in the comments on this page with relatively well written comments by the pro-vaccine groups

    And the idiot doctor who has never heard of a double blind randomized vaccine study has probably never heard of pubmed – the database that lists dozens of double blind randomized vaccine studies; he may be your friend, but I would suggest using a different doctor.

  27. To the writer of this article. Having an autistic grandchild, I can tell you, that I would think very hard if I should or should not immunize children today. Doctors give multiple shots at once; I wonder if that was not the cause. I just wonder.

  28. “with the queer people”.

    Thanx for the name calling. Very mature. Why would anyone wan’t to enter a shidduch with you? You have such a winning positive additute. Very brave of you to hide your name. I see you have a very nice way of dealing with people who disagree with you.

  29. If you choose not to vaccinate your child, that is your decision. However, keep your child away from mine! Even if my child is vaccinated, he has, at most 95% chance of not getting the disease (as mentioned by Dr. Shanik). That means that my vaccinated child’s exposure to your unvaccinated child raises his chance of getting the disease from 0% to 5%. It is irresponsible of you to put my child at risk for your beliefs. If you felt that there existed a link between a certain food and a cancer, for example, your decision not to eat the food would not affect anyone else. I’ll continue to eat it, but you can stop eating it, if you so wish. But immunizations are different; your decision not to immunize affects me. Therefore, if you choose not to immunize, that is fine with me. But keep your children far, far away from mine. Your “beliefs” have no right to interfere with mine. Maybe you can set up a commune someplace in an unpopulated area where you can all live with your unprotected children so as not to endanger others.
    As an aside, I attend a community college and one of my professors asked me what is going on in Lakewood with all the controversy of vaccinating children. First there is the mumps (brought into this country by a frum kid who then infected a whole bunch of others (remember, vaccinations do not provide 100% coverage) and now the whooping cough. Now Chillul Hashem is coming into the equation.

  30. #37 If a person has a reason for not vaccinating children, and if it is a decent person, they will tell other parents about this, and in fact they will also usually take a few minutes explaining the reasons, which usually for decent people, happen to be legitimate medical opinions (maybe our doctor disagree, but will not call them nuts). Not everyone is a dimwit or a psychopath/sociopath or a tinfoil hat. And there are other diseases whose vaccinations are not recommended for the general population and who are infectious and dangerous. People will make their decisions, if necessary having consulted with their doctor and their rabbi, and people can respect other people’s decisions, even those we disagree with. Maybe we’ll keep our children away for a few weeks and have them talk with their children on the phone only? It’s not the end of the world. However, if a child is not vaccinated, the parents should be first in line not to have the child play with peers at the very first signs of an outburst, and to phone the families of the children he played with in the previous days (because guess what? Something can be done if we are aware someone was exposed! Ask your doctor). If the parents of the non-vaccinated child don’t care for someone else’s child (maybe heavily immunodepressed – maybe transplanted? maybe doing chemoterapy?) and ultimately not for their own child either – sorry but I accept no excuse, they are reshaim and I curse them as such.

  31. RAM, #34- every single thing on the website Nachum linked has a scientific study backing it. Why don’t you go check it out yourself?

  32. The reason for some of the virtual end of diseases that plagued even the western world a century ago, is not immunization.
    The quality of drinking water is likely reason number one.
    Hygene. Laundering clothing is done way more often now, and people shower or bath way more often, as they all have indoor fascilities to do so.
    Population density. People are no longer living cramped 17 people from a family, or 25 people from 3 families, together in a small appartment, like they were a century ago.
    Heating. Indoor heating is heads over heals better than what it used to be. No more little coal oven in the corner.
    The reasons go on, and you could think of some more yourself, if you would shift your mind into gear, with even a minimal knowledge of recent history, and the improovements to quality of life we enjoy in western countries.
    Innoculation, is a leftover socialist like regime, that has somehow lasted until now. And the reason is, is ignorance of the people, the agenda of those who want to administer them, and the fearful uneducated hypocondriacal folks who do not read up on facts, or think. they only spaz out and get all huffy and puffy, and preach universal innoculation. It is ridiculous.
    Now that asides, most posters here are sidestepping what someone brought up near the top. What the Gedolim say. I asked my Rav when I had my first child. Perhaps do the same, instead of going on some crusade style campaign. This is totally smacking of istanis behavior. Jews are to have their minds rule over their hearts, not the other way around.
    Educate yourself, and you will likely never ever consider vaccination. You crazy litvacks consider cows and chickens to be treif if they have had shots!!!!!!!!!!!! What do you think children are that receive them!!!!!

  33. i called R Shlomo Miller he said people should vaccinate and that he signed a letter that schools can withhold admission from unvaccinated children.

  34. Vaccinations that can prevent an existing plague, c’v, or cure is one thing and, hopefully, good. Many vaccinations and new ones today are making pharmaceuticals very, very wealthy, thus, good reason for pushing them. They really don’t much care how it affects people. There are definitely indications of negative results regarding certain vaccines, and parents should learn more before innoculating their children re certain vaccines. Here, it’s a matter of never having too much knowledge as it affects their children.
    Wise for parents to be very alert about anything and everything that pertains to the health of their families. Never forget, the bottom line is always money.

  35. to poster 3 i am very very conservative except for this matter, for each child vaccinated it lowers the risk for everyone getting that specific desease, let me explain. for example the flu vaccine has a 80% success rate 20% are immune to the disease if 80% of the people who get the shot dont get the flu than there is only 20 percent of the people able to get the disease, there are some diseases that one can carry but are immune to for example chicken pox so if everyone gets the shot than less people can catch it and carry it
    to poster 45 before there were vaccines there was also much less science and medicine so people did not die from cancer they died from other things my great grandfather never had any vaccines, they didnt have any when he was young, he died from cancer, there are recent studies where they found cancer in dead people who lived 100s of years ago i believe it was lung and liver now people live longer it is like suggesting that prolonging life span causes alzheimers disease, no older one is the higher risk for developing alzheimers

  36. #23 – there have been numerous “double-blind” studies of vaccines. The most famous was the series of tests done to determine if the Salk polio vaccine worked. In fact, I learned about it in statistics class, where we went over the method of the study and why it had to be done the way it was to be statistically valid. You are too young to remember the terror that polio epidemics caused, or diphtheria, or whooping cough. Children r”l died from disease that are now just a legend.

    If you want to go back to the days before vaccines, you want to go back to the days when almost one child in every ten died of a contagious disease. Do you really want this?

  37. # 45, they didn’t die from cancer because they died from the different disease for which we are now being immunized! With greater life expectancy, there are going to have more cases of cancer.

  38. First of, I hope no one has their opinion swayed by what is written here is a matzav shmooze. Please don’t take my word or trust me, but don’t trust your doctor either. If he or I am wrong, we will not have to live with our mistakes, you will.

    Concerning Wakefeild(raised questions about MMR and autism) and the Danish Study that proved Wakefeild a fraud. The following article about Poul Thorsen(pro vaccine) was written a year before Thorsen was indicted for a million dollars embezzlement of research funds. Julie Gerberding was the head of the CDC at this time(2002-9). There was not a questionable vaccine or a dangerous drug she did not like. She quietly retired from the CDC a few years ago and is now the head of the vaccine division of Merck, the largest vaccine producer in the world. Estimated salary is approx 2 million per year. It is a known problem with the FDA and the CDC. Federal employees working in drug safety oversight know that if they don’t ask the hard questions that need to be asked, then they have a fat job waiting for them a few years down the road. Don’t trust me or your doctor, but trust the FDA least of all. Sometimes advisory boards passing approval of drugs have 9 out of 10 members of that board needing conflict of interest waivers. Meaning that they work for the company that makes the drug.

    How about asthma? We are playing with our children’s immune system in a way that is totally not understood.

    What about promoting healthy lifestyles? The Ramban in Bechukosai says that a doctor’s job is to teach us how to eat and drink well and be healthy. Do doctors do that? Or is that called a nutritionist? Modern medicine has been taken over by pharm corp money. The pharm industry’s job is to sell drugs and not the public well being. If a pharm corp employee came up with something that would same millions of lives, but would cost his employer billions in sales, you tell me who is in control of the decision making process?. I could go on like this for pages.

  39. Rabboisai!
    Way out of hand!
    Please speak with respect for other yidden!
    I respect your decisions all the same whether i agree or not. EVERYONE STOP PANICING!
    So, please no name calling, and only bracha and sholom
    ein kli machzik brocho ela sholom

  40. Wow! What heat and hate coming forth. i completly understand that people want to be protective of thier children (since i have my own) but at the end of the day all we are expected to do is our hishtadlus and even with that everything is up to Hashem so if you are pro vaccines and follow what medical research has proven or if you are anti the vaccine campaign (as long as you did your own thorough research) then it is fine because you did your hishtadlus. all this hateful speech and the causing of machlokes is what causes sickness and tzaros chas v’shalom. we should all focus on doing what is most important which is preventing this machlokes from getting any bigger by respecting each others decisions and that will be the best protection for our children. (and by the way my children are vaccinated, just in case you thought i was saying this so i could get shidduchim with your children. lol!!)

  41. For all of you that are interested in finding out the truth about vaccines, I have posted lots of sources and articles, when you are done doing your research you will know why so many people are not vaccinating anymore.

    you can also call the hotline with more information, about 20 lectures by doctors , and 1 debate between both sides. 718-506 9057 press 6,4,1.

    The insert ofthe DTP vaccine says that SIDS can be followed using the DTP and DTaP vaccine. So start reading inserts.

    Articles on SV40 virus in polio vaccine and cancer from medical journals

    Cox, H “Viral vaccines and human welfare ” Lancet , jul.4 1953, 1-5

    Hull, R., Minner, J., and Smith, J. “New viral agents recovered from tissue culturesof monkey kidney cells” American journal of hygiene 63:204-215 (1956)

    Nathanson ,N., and Langmuir, A. ” The cutter incident: Poliomyelitis following vaccination in the United States during the spring of 1955. I . Background, ll. Relationship of poliomyelitis to Cutter vaccine, lll. Comparison of the clinical character of vaccinated and contact cases occurring after use of high rate lots of cutter vaccine.” American Journal of hygiene 78:16-81 (1963)

    Heinonen,O.P.,et al.”Immunization during pregnancy against Poliomyelitis and influenza in relationship to Childhood malignancy”. International journal of Epidemiology 2(3): 229-235 (1973)

    Tabuchi, K., et al. ” Screening of Human Brain Tumors for SV40-Related T Antigens” international Journal of Cancer 21: 12-17 (1978)


    information on Youtube with many doctors watch each segment, this is the first

    websites (read the vaccine cover up)

  42. Okay, Mr. or Mrs. Ready To Take Action;
    If you know so much about the subject, why would you write to Matzav? Write to your local public school superintendant with the same outrage over the Eastern cultured children who by religious restictions do not receive vaccines? That’s right folks. In many ethnic Eastern cultures, India, parts of Pakinstan, etc., the use of blood of animals is prohibited. There are a number of vaccines which have as part of their ingredients animal serum. So the proportion of Frum kids not vaccinated is a pittance as compared to immigrants not vaccinated. This is aside from the pro and con discussion of the vaccine itself.

    My friend just told me her one day old baby received her first hep-B vaccine in the hospital. 1. She had no idea what hep-B came from, nor what it is. 2. She had no problem with her less than 24 hour old child being pricked with a needle.

    I explained that hep-B is mostly contracted through unprotected sexual relationships and that her infant wasn’t at immediate risk, and hopefully never would be! By all the frummies allowing their kids to receive this vaccine, they are basically resigning to the fact that their kid may lead a promiscuous lifestyle!!
    And why in the world is an infant’s delicate immune system being tampered with? Most doctors who are die hard advocates of vaccines would agree that they can be pushed off until the baby is older so he builds his own immunity.

    There are a great many books which discuss this topic. I recommend Evidence of Harm which discusses the role the CDC plays in vaccines and the shocking coverup the government has allowed for all these years. It is a great read.

    The way we came to the conclusion to not vaccinate was not through someone trying to convince us, but through educating ourselves.

  43. 45. Add to that the incidence of juvenile diabetes, asthma, ear infections, strep throat, allergies, adhd, celiac, irritable bowl syndrome….

  44. Check this out:

    It will clarify lots of the confusion out there and all of you will be able to sleep peacefully, knowing that your children are not at risk from unvaccinated children.

  45. From a can of tuna, u get more mercury than many many many shots.
    Quote from my prof who is a pediatric dr in bklyn.,. “a kid can get over 1,000 vaccines in one visit and he will be fine”

  46. No matter what the issue,please do not call a segment of Klal Yisroel mishugaim, rather find out from them why they take this position. I personally vaccinated my kids and used to think that people who don’t are “unintelligent health nut” who have been brainwashed. After my own son developed a neurological disorder, i decided to look into the “other side” and was quite surprised by my findings. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH! YOUR DOCTOR MAY BE WONDERFUL, SMART AND DEVOTED, BUT HIS EDUCATION ONLY GAVE HIM ONE SIDE OF THE STORY.

  47. now for the next topic…
    STOP THE ABUSE OF antibiotics!!!!!!!!!!!
    everyone thinks that antibiotics is the miracle drug. HEY!!! it does not kill viruses.
    The Most common cause of bronchitis is VIRAL!!!!a cold is viral. many sinus infections are viral.
    The reason why it looks like the virus went away with antibiotics is because over time, the virus is killed by the body. THAT DOESNT MEAN THE ABX KILLED THE GERM.
    DONT drive ur dr or leave the practice because they refuse to give u the prescription u want.
    they went to school and YOU didnt…
    We have big probs out there with resistant organisms – biggest reason is because of the misuse of abx.
    BE SMART!!!
    DONT BEG!!!!!!!

  48. response to # 45: you ask:
    just curious. Before all these shots were created, how many ppl died of cancer?
    Possible answer: Before vaccinations, many many people died young- those that made it through childhood obviously were the ones with the super strong immune systems. Since today almost everyone survives childhood, there are many more people around with weaker immune systems who are more susceptible to all sorts of things.
    To #47:
    It’s true that in a perfect society, people wouldn’t be so money hungry, but the way of the world is that “profit” is a huge motivation to produce and invent and come up with all sorts of contributions to society. How many medical breakthroughs and great inventions take place in communist/dictatorship countries where they aren’t allowed to earn their own profit? Again it’s not a perfect system, but it’s the best we can have in golus.

  49. One myth that won’t seem to go away is that DTaP vaccine causes sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). This belief came about because a moderate proportion of children who die of SIDS have recently been vaccinated with DTaP; and on the surface, this seems to point toward a causal connection. But this logic is faulty; you might as well say that eating bread causes car crashes, since most drivers who crash their cars had probably eaten bread within the past 24 hours.

    If you consider that most SIDS deaths occur during the age range when 3 shots of DTaP are given, you would expect DTaP shots to precede a fair number of SIDS deaths simply by chance. In fact, when a number of well-controlled studies were conducted during the 1980s, the investigators found, nearly unanimously, that the number of SIDS deaths temporally associated with DTP vaccination was within the range expected to occur by chance. In other words, the SIDS deaths would have occurred even if no vaccinations had been given. In several of the studies, children who had recently gotten a DTaP shot were less likely to get SIDS. The Institute of Medicine reported that “all controlled studies that have compared immunized versus nonimmunized children have found either no association . . . or a decreased risk . . . of SIDS among immunized children” and concluded that “the evidence does not indicate a causal relation between [DTaP] vaccine and SIDS.”

  50. If it was really true that adverse effects of vaccination are so common don’t you think that there would be many more doctors who based on their own experience would be advising against vaccination. By the ant-vaccine crowds own numbers 0nly 1-3 percent of doctors are anti- vaccine. Or is everything just a life of “conspiracies and money”.

  51. MISCONCEPTION #1 – Diseases had already begun to disappear before vaccines were introduced, because of better hygiene and sanitation.

    Statements like this are very common in anti-vaccine literature, the intent apparently being to suggest that vaccines are not needed. Improved socioeconomic conditions have undoubtedly had an indirect impact on disease. Better nutrition, not to mention the development of antibiotics and other treatments, have increased survival rates among the sick; less crowded living conditions have reduced disease transmission; and lower birth rates have decreased the number of susceptible household contacts. But looking at the actual incidence of disease over the years can leave little doubt of the significant direct impact vaccines have had, even in modern times. Here, for example, is a graph showing the reported incidence of measles from 1950 to the present.

    A graph showing the reported incidence of measles from 1950 to the present. There were periodic peaks and valleys throughout the years, but the real, permanent drop coincided with the licensure and wide use of measles vaccine beginning in 1963.

    There were periodic peaks and valleys throughout the years, but the real, permanent drop in case of measles in the U.S. coincided with the licensure and wide use of measles vaccine beginning in 1963. Graphs for most other vaccine-preventable diseases show a similar pattern. Are we expected to believe that better sanitation caused incidence of each disease to drop, just at the time a vaccine for that disease was introduced?

    *The incidence rate of hepatitis B has not dropped so dramatically yet because the infants we began vaccinating in 1991 will not be at high risk for the disease until they are at least teenagers. We therefore expect about a 15 year lag between the start of universal infant vaccination and a significant drop in disease incidence.

    Hib vaccine is another good example, because Hib disease was prevalent until just a few years ago, when conjugate vaccines that can be used for infants were finally developed. (The polysaccharide vaccine previously available could not be used for infants, in whom most cases of the disease were occurring.) Since sanitation is not better now than it was in 1990, it is hard to attribute the virtual disappearance of Haemophilus influenzae disease in children in recent years (from an estimated 20,000 cases a year to 1,419 cases in 1993, and dropping) to anything other than the vaccine.

    Varicella can also be used to illustrate the point, since modern sanitation has obviously not prevented nearly 4 million cases each year in the United States. If diseases were disappearing, we should expect varicella to be disappearing along with the rest of them. But nearly all children in the United States get the disease today, just as they did 20 years ago or 80 years ago. Based on experience with the varicella vaccine in studies before licensure, we can expect the incidence of varicella to drop significantly now that a vaccine has been licensed for the United States. Active surveillance in a number of countries and cities demonstrate a 76-86% decrease in varicella cases from 1995-2001.

    Finally, we can look at the experiences of several developed countries after they let their immunization levels drop. Three countries – Great Britain, Sweden, and Japan – cut back the use of pertussis vaccine because of fear about the vaccine. The effect was dramatic and immediate. In Great Britain, a drop in pertussis vaccination in 1974 was followed by an epidemic of more than 100,000 cases of pertussis and 36 deaths by 1978. In Japan, around the same time, a drop in vaccination rates from 70% to 20%-40% led to a jump in pertussis from 393 cases and no deaths in 1974 to 13,000 cases and 41 deaths in 1979. In Sweden, the annual incidence rate of pertussis per 100,000 children 0-6 years of age increased from 700 cases in 1981 to 3,200 in 1985. It seems clear from these experiences that not only would diseases not be disappearing without vaccines, but if we were to stop vaccinating, they would come back.

    Of more immediate interest is the major epidemic of diphtheria which occurred in the former Soviet Union from 1989 to 1994, where low primary immunization rates for children and the lack of booster vaccinations for adults have resulted in an increase from 839 cases in 1989 to nearly 50,000 cases and 1,700 deaths in 1994. There have already been at least 20 imported cases in Europe and two cases in U.S. citizens working in the former Soviet Union.

  52. Rabbi Dr. Akiva Tatz has a tape on medical ethics (I think called medical ethics 1) on which he says that the question of herd immunity was brought to Rav Elyashiv and the Rav said that you can even compel parents to vaccinate their children.

  53. Dear #39, please be civil. There are short term placebo controlled studies. Long term means 15-25 years later and there are none. There are epidemiological studies showing increased juvenile onset diabetes due to hep B vaccine and asthma due to vaccines in general. plus others

    Dear #65 the doctor who came up with the phrase “it is safe to give a child 1000 vaccines(he really said 10,000)” was Dr. Paul Offit. He is known in the “anti-vaccine world” also as Dr. Profit. He personally made 29 million dollars from one patent alone that he owns on Rototeq vaccine. He has made 10’s of millions on other vaccines also. (try googling offit million)

    Also concerning tuna, the forms of mercury found in tuna(methyl-mercury) vs. what is used in vaccines (ethyl-mercury) are different with the ethyl-mercury having very little research and just “assuming” that it is the same. NOT SCIENCE Also, to just look at micrograms ingested while one is eaten and the other is injected is worse than NOT SCIENCE, it is totally disingenious and misleading

    Dear #64 How is this for a reputable source
    This is a 16 page footnoted article written by Dr. Russel Blaylock. He is analyzing the results of a two day conference of 51 leading scientists discussing mercury in the vaccines. Since then the mercury has mostly been removed from vaccines in the US (not so here in Israel) it has been replaced with aluminum which may be just as bad. But it is poorly studied and tested. Anyone whose child is vaccinated with an aluminum preserved vaccine is participating in an uncontrolled human experiment without “informed consent.” This was made illegal in the post war Nuremberg trials.

    or this:
    quotes: With few exceptions, alum remains the sole adjuvant approved for human use in the majority of countries worldwide….alum has the potential to cause severe local and systemic side-effects including sterile abscesses, eosinophilia and myofascitis, although fortunately most of the more serious side-effects are relatively rare. There is also community concern regarding the possible role of aluminium in neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer’s disease.

    Joe Mercola on aluminum in vacines

  54. #66. Your “Doctor’s” side of the story has raised the average life expectancy from less than 50 to almost 80 years over the past century. He has credibility and a solid evidence based on his side. The other side does not.

  55. The discussion has moved away from the medical choice of vaccinating or not vaccinating, it now has to do with mental health issues and sociopaths. By the way I invite everyone who can stomach it, to read some links and learn about “chemical trails” supposed invented by jews in order to cause cancer and sterility among nonjews, about “nanochips” supposedly inserted in vaccines, etc etc. People who deny the Shoah such as the cursed Hamer, formerly a medical doctor and founder of the “new german medicine”. Yes, some people have no hesitation to recommend pamphlets written by the same people who fabricate blood libels. On Matzav no less! What does that say about those people?
    Finally, this is about people who “educated themselves” and who have no respect for the recognized authorities in the medical field (will it only be limited to the medical field?) I stay away.

  56. Whoever wrote this most likely serves diet soda at their table, giving aspartame to all their guests! We know nothing about what we put in us

  57. To # 53
    “Vaccinations are forbidden by Jewish Law, as they are not part of our Mesorah.”
    Our mesorah is that crazies were locked up. How about getting yourself locked up?

  58. Mercury in tuna is not eaten by infants.
    Many Obstricians insist on no tuna during pregnancy.
    Mercury inserted into muscle tissue is a different story from ingesting it, besides for the fact that it’s a different form.
    The latest studies show a strong link between heavy metals (mercury, lead, cadmium, aluminum – yes all the disposable pans) and Alzheimer’s.

  59. Ask any doctor going to med school how many years are spent on learning about pharmacology and how many (days?) are spent learning about nutrition. Depending solely on doctors and having them decide your health is a big mistake. Use them if you need them, do your own research and choose your doctor wisely, especially one who has the time to consider your concerns and not bash them.

  60. First off people need to learn about the medical industry.
    Understand them, before you trust them.
    They are a business, they are an industry.
    They do not care, and they are making monmey, and do not want to be sued, and are buddy buddy, and are not your friends.
    If you will talk to frum doctors and naturopaths, they will mostly tell you there is no need to vaccinate, and that it can be dangerous.
    If you will speak with a posek who is informed, by facts and material, not by exaggerated and uberconcerned congregants.
    How do you think many Rabbanim deal with people who nag them and badger them?
    I have seen responsa by Rabbanim on issues, that are obviously wrong, and it can be chocekd up to misinformation. When the issue is all your “concerned” congregants, and some under the spotlight issue, the Rabbanim will get coerced into uninformed decisions.
    My Rav ZL said there is not need, and one can vaccinate for what is lifethreatening where one lives. Here in Israel, there is nothing lifethreatening, nor in the States. There was menengitis a decade ago, but the fatal cases where people who didnt get treated when they hsould have. Anitbiotics deals with most of these non-lifethreatening diseases that people get shots for.

  61. I wonder if the poster is aware of the fact that children allergic too eggs can not be vaccinated. Would he suggest not doing a shidduch with these kids? Should they also be kicked out of school?

  62. I asked my Jewish doctor (whose brothers are Rabbis) over 20 years ago about vaccinations, since I saw so much conflicting evidence, pro and con, from different sources. He told me that there was yet no clear scientific, EVIDENCE-BASED answer that he could give me. He respected my doubts and told me as a father, not a doctor, that HE had enough doubts that his youngest children were not vaccinated.

    Now, years later, he has come to a clear, evidence-based answer. He does not vaccinate the children in his practice.

  63. If you do not vaccinate due to the hysteria currently surrounding the practice, you are not only violating the Mitzvah of Ushmartichem, but you are endangering others around you to the point that you may be causing deaths.

    There is no Torah basis for not vaccinating unless there are medical conditions that apply to a specific individual. Some people react poorly to vaccinations, and thus vaccinating them is dangerous. These people rely on herd immunity. Anyone who compromises herd immunity due to hysteria is a Rodef.

  64. B”H,

    I work in the NYC health care and public health communities and am head of Bikur Cholim at my synagogue.

    I wonder why any parent would allow his/her child to run the risk of developing measles, rubella, mumps, chicken pox, whooping cough, flu, and the like when Hashem has gifted us with means to avoid all of this and to have health and happy children.

    Please explain why anyone would want to have sick children who could possibly even die when it’s so easy to avoid.

    Thank you.

    Shalom and peace.

    Dr. Elyas F. Isaacs

    PS. At my New York Academy of Medicine Section on Public Health, we have many informative resources showing the benefits of vaccination. Recall during the early years of the 1900’s, that millions of New York City citizens perished from the huge influenza epidemics. That is factual historic evidence of what happens WITHOUT vaccines and vaccinations.


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