Ysoscher Katz Responds To Facebook Critique

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Dear Editor,

Decency and halakha (שמוע בין אחיכם) would require you to first ask for my response before publishing your critique. Be that as it may, I think it would be appropriate for you to at least notify your readers that I recanted that post, perhaps even publish what I wrote the next day.

Here is what I wrote:

Paraphrasing Mishna Brachot 1:3.

R. Tarfon said: once, on nittel nacht, I shared a complex idea, trying to push friends and “friends” a little bit beyond their comfort zone, and I was crucified.

His colleagues responded: good for you! You deserved it for you have deviated from normative minhag.

On nittel nacht you play chess, eat Chinese food and watch a silly movie. You don’t use the time to grapple with complex ideas, or share your desire for a more robust religiosity. As the poskim point out, minhag is also the letters of geihenom (in Hebrew). Break a custom and you will end up in purgatory.

Seriously though, while still confused about the vehement reaction, overall it was a rich and meaningful experience. We have created a beautiful virtual yeshivah here, where ideas are debated with passion, nuance, and integrity-but with respect. And, for that I am deeply grateful: מודה אני … ששמתי חלקי מיושבי בית המדרש ולא מיושבי קרנות, אנו עמלים והם עמלים, they fight, and we fight-abut ideas! Yasher koach chaveirim and “chaveirim.”

The moral of the fracas is multifaceted: murderous historical sensitivities are almost impossible to overcome; when the nuance gets too delicate the risk of being misunderstood outweighs the benefit of generating conversation about complex ideas; the more risqué the idea, the more important it is to be precise; and, I am sure many more lessons are to be learned, which will become clear over time.

Be’ydidut,
Ysoscher Katz


87 COMMENTS

    • You mean the beis that decided they were able to overturn Rav Moshe`s psak on the eiruv ?

      Why should they rescind anything ?

      They also change halacha with the times

      • Asides that your very comment is ignoramus and arrogant, the fact that he received Yudin Yudin by Rav Roth is totally not relevant to his outcome, perhaps you should bash all his former Yeshivos: Satmar, Brisk (Rav Dovid) etc as well..

        FYI – Rav Roth did not “overturn” any psak of Rav Moshe on Eruv, and asides that, Hilchos Eruvin has been around for hundreds of years and, if Rav Y Roth decides to rely on other shitos than Rav Moshe (e.g. Chazon Ish and Magen Avrohom) he is entitled…

      • You are %100 right.
        The fact that now, ruba diruba Chassidim carry on Shabbos in Boro Park does not in any way mitigate the fact that all these so-called cutting edge Rabbonim don’t hold a candle to Reb Moshe ZT”L! When he was alive they didn’t dare open their mouths. As the Satmar Rav, Reb Yolish ZTVK”L once famously told one his Chassidim who questioned a Psak from Reb Moshe ZT”L, “be very careful, Reb Moshe may start talking to you in learning”.

        • “these so-called cutting edge Rabbonim don’t hold a candle to Reb Moshe ZT”L!”
          FYI – Psak does not operate like that.
          How about Rav Moshe vs the Magen Avrohom? Does Rav Moshe hold a candle against the MA?
          Rav Moshe does argue on the M”A regarding Eruvin (see Igrot OC vol 1:140), in any case, it is not relevant, as the very Rabanom issuing the Heter specifically stated that it is indeed NOT going against Rav Moshe’s psak, being that there are 3 Mechitzos d’O’raisa plus encompassing Brooklyn..

  1. LIKE REB TZVI HIRSH BERLIN Z’TL SAID ON ANOTHER APIKORES ‘KOSHER MEAT COOKED IN TREIF POT IS TREIF’ So nomatter what this SHEIGETZ APIKORES KATZ says ,its TREIFFFFFF’

    The pope can learn and know gantz shass but it null and void. TORAH IS ONLY IF LEARNED WITH KEDUSHE…

    • “apikores” that’s a horrible accusation. I’d very much appreciate if you could back up your claim. I never ever said anything that would justify such a moniker.

      • YOU SAID PLENTY OTHER THINKS TO SUCH AN EFFECT.
        THE FACT THAT YOU ALIEGIN YOURSELF WITH SUCH A MOVMENT THAT EPSOUSES HERETICAL VIEWS , FROM THE MAIN CLERICS ,JACKOBOVITS S’RY AND THE LIKES, LIKE THE HOLY TORAH WAS WASNT GIVEN BY G-D,OR SOME PARTS OF IT , OR SOME MITZVOUS ARE OBSOLETE LIKE SODDOM LAWS . AND A BUNCH OF SUCH ‘LITTLE’ AVEIROS LIKE AL TARBE SICHOS ETC ETF AND PLENTY MORE…ANYBODY OUT THERE JUST READ THE SITE OV THE ‘OO’ AKA REFORM

  2. Yisochor is a ‘nice guy’, but breathing the extremely polluted liberal air on the upper West Side (and Riverdale) (also UES-Ramaz), can have serious effects over time.

    A Yid should do what is right, not engage in the competition up there to show how liberal and “open minded” you are.

  3. You may recant all you want אויב די האסט נאר איינמאל געפאשעט אין דעם זומפ ביסט די דיינע קינדער אין אייניקלעך פארלוירען

  4. I don’t grasp where this response helps.
    @ Ysoscher:
    Whilst I commend open-mined discussions, complex ideas etc. Your very comment about YS”U is sort of ignorant from many factions, at least do your proper research and how to base your statement.

    For starters, read the Magen Avos (new edition: where the “censored” chapters were reprinted) of the Rashbat’z.

  5. Don’t beg for our DECENCY (and/or acceptance – embrace) for your poor and foolish choice(s). Your DEEDS will bring you close, your deeds will push you away. So far you only showed us how FAR you’ve strayed from the path of true life of Torah according to our Mesorah. Pitiful. May we all Zocheh to do proper & complete Teshuvah.

      • Jake,

        You know that your claim is factually untrue, that it is actually the opposite. A yiddishkeit sprinkled with a sensitivity toward modern sensibilities actually brings people closer to the RSO. There are of course risks with such an approach and that is why I appreciate the critiques and push back-when done respectfully. But to say that it is chote and machte is belied by the facts.

  6. Rabbi Katz,

    It seems that you have learned some lessons, but your continued confusion of the vehement reaction is troubling.

    Nuance has its place. However, when it comes to Avoda Zara, it has no place at all. The Torah’s use of שקץ תשקצנו ותעב תתעבנו כי חרם הוא does not imply that we should be nuanced about this matter.

    A Mesit receives no benefit of the doubt (Rambam Hil. A.Z. 5:4). We should not be attributing good traits to such a person, even if you believe that historically, he wasn’t so bad.

    You concluded: “I am sure many more lessons are to be learned, which will become clear over time.” I hope that is the case and I hope that they are the right lessons.

  7. his letter here “We have created a beautiful virtual yeshivah here, where ideas are debated with passion,…”
    proves that he should not be given any publicity.

  8. the ownership of a frum media outlet carries a big achrayus. many sheilos need to be asked very often. i hope this chillul hashem is stopped now!
    will you post my comment? well see.

  9. Some of his statements sound like common “Messianic” contrivances. I just get the feeling he pines for the limelight. All his “sources” contradict each other, and our m’sorah at the very lease regards him as a fartumelter. The avodah zarah that eventually developed squashed any semblance of Das-Torah. Pastor Katz, our fartumelters have to learn from theirs? I think you’ve caught the Riskin bug. See ya on You Tube?

  10. On nittel nacht you play chess, eat Chinese food and watch a silly movie.

    When did this Chinese food on nittel nacht start?

    I never heard of it until this year when a guy who spends waaaaaay too much time online told me that such a “minhag” exists.

  11. It’s absurd, and his response didn’t need to be published. He’s pushed the envelope so far so many times, and his response is always the same- you should have reached out to me first. Come on Ysoscher, give me a break. Or either incredibly naïve, or incredibly disingenuous. How can you possibly think people would take a positive view of you saying is that the historical Jesus was a great guy tried to do wonderful things?

    Here’s a wild idea. Connect yourself to a Rebbi, and to a posek, and ask shailos of people bigger than you. Then see what happens.

  12. Decency and Halcha require…blah blah…Common sense and prudence require that when you post something publicly you take full responsibility for the content that you are feeding people’s minds under the title of “Rabbi”. Furthermore, the critique mentioned that this was a FB post, so none of us thought this was yuor dissertation. Engage in social media and the rules of social media apply. Nice condescendance though…

  13. Rachmana Litzlan! How can matzav engage with koifer Katz! Besides the “shoneh uporish” his son is following in his fathers “footsteps” with all the chumros! A maysis umaidiach. Hashem should have pity on you and Sam and have the z’chus to come back fully. Choite umachti es harabbim!

  14. “Ysoscher”, you are not Katz nor do you sound like him. The other poster “Ysoscher Katz” might be the authentic one…

    Asides that i stated a source, please read it and then speak. You seem to have read too much of Christian leaning literature as a source of defining YSU and as “historic”. I would rather take the words of the Rasbatz and the Ramban..

    • I know that source, but you know as well as I do, that it’s not so simple. On the one hand chazal call Oso Ha’Ish a מסית ומדיח, but on the other hand the blame his Rebbe, ר׳ יהושע בן פרחיה, for being too harsh to him.

      • “the blame his Rebbe, ר׳ יהושע בן פרחיה, for being too harsh to him.”

        That still does not take away the fact of him being a מסית ומדיח, it only indicates the path that provoked his fall. Hence, there is no contradiction at all.

        However, as the Magen Avos points out, he did not intend to recreate any Torah the way the xtians have perceived him and he kept many of the mitzvos, even rabbonon’s like netilos yadayim..

          • If you really read through his statements you will see that you went a couple of steps further.

            In no way does he “complement” or indicate any praises in his not discarding the Torah or of any greatness, while I haven’t read it in while, i recall that all he’s trying to prove is that even according to their very OWN writings, Christianity has abandoned his original teachings and beliefs.

            According to him his main issue was declaring himself as Messiah.

            However, he does agree that he was crucified as the Talmud in Sanhdren 44 (?) states. Therefore, there has to be more to it than just declaring yourself as “messiah”…

  15. Ysoscher,
    This is the first time I have ever posted anything online. You keep on asking where the kefirah is. The irony is that someone who is clearly blessed with kishronos and quotes maamrei chazal left and right is still so clueless. The internet of all you kefirah but if you need one you said and I quote “The Torah makes clear that [intercourse] between two men is prohibited, but I like to talk about the 50 shades of gay, in other words, there are many other things they can do that are not expressly prohibited”.
    You love to alter/modify/delete the torah, just like the christians but being delusional doent change the fact that you and all OO anre machtiah es harabin.

    Oh, and you disgusting/prust post sexualizing our avodas hashem is just sicking. And that was 3 years ago. I can’t even imagine how much further you have fallen

    • Meir,

      Thank you for your response.

      If you read closely you’ll see, I merely distinguished between what’s “explicitly” assur; mishkav zachar, and what’s not “explicitly” assur; lo sikrav. That is why many many achronim say that lo sikrav doesn’t apply to mishkav zachar; the Aderes, Rav Eliyashuv, and many others.

      As for sexualizung our relationship with HKBH, hows what I did different than what chazal do (עלובה כלה, איה ספר כריתות) and what the kabbalist did, all over the place.

      • the Gemara in Niddah is pretty clear דרך אברים בני מבול – there is certainly an issur of השחתת זרע, even if there is no issur of lo sikrav with kissing or hugging etc in a non-sexual way the way there is with the other arayos

        • Thanks Anonymous. You know as well as I do that השחתת זרע isn’t a problem unique to the queer community. It’s a problem mechanchim all over the world are struggling with.

          • that isn’t the point, the point is there is still clearly an issur involved, you cannot declare muttar (thus, better to say one is a sinner who needs to do teshuvah like we all do, rather than ostracize people)

  16. Many decades ago, the most prominent of the Reform clergymen, named Stephen Wise publicly stated that the Jews must accept Jebus as one of the Tanaim, and regard his words as Mishna. It’s not like “rabbi” Steve had much respect for the Tanaim and Mishnayos, and neither had his parishioners. Nonetheless, even the Reformists were aghast at his idiotic pronouncement. Yet, here comes someone who supposedly studies and teaches those sacred texts, and, again, invokes the name of an idolatrous individual. Please, tell me, Ketzale, wherein lies the difference between yourself, and that long-decomposed Wise character? You should be exposed for the apikores that you are. There are many ways to skin a Katz, and your own stupidity provided the first method.

    • should we not mention the sun or the moon because fools idolized them? As long as one is not worshipping oso ha’ish, there is nothing actually wrong with mentioning him anymore than mentioning Pharaoh’s name.

  17. Does anyone notice that all the comments are vindicating his actual criticism of the “status quo”? I embrace what he is calling ‘mythological’ (actually, theological) but he is clearly fed up with an unrealistic view that sees Jesus as less correct then even a broken clock can be.

  18. As a Hasidic Rabbi who works daily with clergy of other religions, and who has studied these issues for year, I do not see any issue in anything that Rabbi Katz has written here (I have had issues with other things he has written over the years, but I still have respect for him, both his scholarship and his intellectual honesty). Rav Yaakov Emden zya, in his protests against the Sabbatean movements, wrote a far more positive support of Christianity and the person of Yeshu than Rabbi Katz wrote here. I know some of my friends claim this was a forgery, and it certainly is unusual, but if the Yaavetz can write such glowing approbations of the Church, why should Rabbi Katz be castigated?

    • for the past hour, I was sitting with my tallis and tefillin on discussing theology with my co-worker, a Russian Orthodox Priest… I should make sure I finish davening before chatzos…

      • actually, I supervise him, so my worker – only in America could a rabbi be the boss over galachim, imams, Buddhist yogis, and Indian chiefs, and I say that is specifically because this is a Christian country. I thank Hashem every day I don’t live in a secular country, and that I don’t live in a “Jewish State”, but in a Christian Country that is a secular state…

    • For those who are not familiar with him, Joseph Kolakowski is a mainstream Hasidic Rabbi like Ysoscher Katz is. In other words, not at all. They are both far out.

      Don’t be fooled by the Hasidic garb and shtreimel.

      Ysoscher Katz also still has a shtreimel, and still wears it at times (I think. I think I saw him around six years ago with it when he was visiting B.P.).

      • P.S. Ysoscher – I recall the shtreimel you were wearing was small/old fashioned. Not one of the jumbo modern models.

        Can you still be yotzei with such a shtreimel? Not all Chasidim adopted Chazon Ish shiur shtreimlech?

        Maybe YCT/OO can issue a ruling on that?

      • except we are in opposite directions in some ways – I send my kids to the schools he ran away from, so I hope at least my kids will be better than I am…

  19. “but if the Yaavetz ”

    Asides for being a big IF” and, the very fact that he was under the gun of the Christians at the time, (in fact, he upheld that halachakly Christianity is worse than AZ meshutafot, unlike the Rema that Ben Noach is muttar), that is precisely R Katz’s issue; although a brilliant scholar, he is NOT the Yaa’vetz and, as always, he is constantly treading in waters that are NOT his territory. The issues he has been addressing, undertaking, attacking are way above his head.

    The issues he has been addressing and deciding are issues that only very few individuals are capable of ruling in any given generation. Individuals that their Gadlos and genius go way beyond his capacity or anyone else out there.

    Historically there have been many controversial figures, whether they were accepted or not, most were truly brilliant and giants, their mindset were thus diff than the typical or the accepted, hence their controversy statements.
    This is NOT the above case.

    He might be the Wunderkind of his current surrounding, but he himself knows; based on his knowledge etc. his status in the true Torah world compared to others, he would have been at most a successful “local Rabbi”.

    NOTE – I am not trying to knock him, but to bring the issue into a true perspective of מכיר את מקומו. Just because one is “open minded” does not mean that you have the true capacity of ruling and deciding on those very issues.

    At most, he should at least quoted scholarly proof to back his controversial comment…

    • fair enough, Gaon. I don’t feel “knocked” at all. Critique be’derech kavod is always an honor.

      As for your specific critique: I provided significant “scholarly proof” in the comments section on original post, הידוע לשמצה 🙂 I am happy to share them with you as well.

    • The Brotder Ruv shlita told me he went to yeshivah together with Rabbi Katz, and he was “the best boy in Monroe” at the time.

  20. the real issue I have here is, there is no way to know “the Historical Jesus”. Many secular scholars have tried to create a “historical Jesus”, but history requires record, and we have no accurate records of the life of someone named Yeshu from the 1st Century CE, unless we consider the Christian gospels, or parts of them (omitting obvious additions) to be historical documents (I consider them to be historical fiction). (we do have record of a Yeshu from a century earlier). All the “Historical Jesus” is is merely a theoretical Jesus. He was not a prominent historical figure, and would be unknown if not for the myths built around him. Many would say the brief mention of Jesus in Josephus was a forgery. Instead of contemplating a “historical figure” who might have never existed, it might be better to work on dialogue with our Christian neighbors, particularly in issues we have shared values in. For example, working together with the Catholic Church to fight the attack by secularists against religious freedom for parochial schools.

    • “there is no way to know “the Historical Jesus”” “Many would say the brief mention of Jesus in Josephus was a forgery.”

      Agreed – I would go a step further, the very “brief” mention (only as a “by the way” upon mentioning Pilate, who was a vicious murder as well) in Josephus indicates his non-status figure, had he been that much of an influential figure he would have been given much more space in Josephus writings, and as mentioned, many have proof as it being a forgery or at least mistranslated/edited.

      The very fact that he is rarely mentioned until a century later, is most likely that he was considered as another lunatic who proclaimed himself Messiah, who could have easily influenced the simple people of the Galilee, but was exposed upon his entry to Jerusalem. I am sure there were many others as well…

        • Ysoscher,
          I am not saying it as a factual way of how to define his personality, I’m just pointing it out as a way of understanding his given status at the time. There were many proclaimed “false messiahs” through out the ages and, he might have been one of many. For some reason his movement picked up hundreds of years later.

        • Chazal talk about someone named Yeshu who lived a century before the Christians say Jesus lived. It is clearly not the same person, albeit it is possible that the Christian Jesus was a fictional character who was loosely based on this Yeshu. The other references to Oso HaIsh when Onkelos spoke to him would be in the realm of Jewish myth and legend, not historical record (although I do believe this reference to be true, but it would not be labeled by the secular world as “historical”).

  21. Debating Mr Yissocher Katz is a waste of time. He is a part of chovevei Torah and the open “orthodox” movement.
    They support all kinds of to’eva, perversion and their values are taken from the pages of the NY Times and not chazal. They are wolves in sheeps clothing no different (actually) much worse than the american conservative movement of the 1950’s. They are a total fraud and he is one of their leaders. Who cares if he can quote chazals all over the place. It does not matter. He is angry, sad and full of rage at those who truly want to live a pure, Torah life. It is irrelevant where MR Katz got his smicha. He has imbibed the poisonous waters of the American Left which has nothing at all to do with Torah. In fact their values are the exact opposite of ours. Enough. This is a waste of time. I wish all readers a good day of Learning Torah and doing Mitzvos and no more wasting time on this hevel havalim of the highest level.

    • The only rage on this page comes from your comments. This has been a very pleasant conversation (for the most part) between people who strongly disagree but can do so without calling names. Try it, you’ll be a lot more successful.

      • WE DONT TREAT A MAISIS UMADIACH, APIKORES ETC WITH KID GLOVES…APIKORES? SEE POSTS ABOVE WHY HE IS ONE.WANT MORE , HERE…apikores?prek chelek ‘eyezayhu apikores, hamvazeh talmud chachem(shelo perush..) THIS KATZ GUY WE READ IN ONE OF HISTZOAH ARTICLE SPEAKING DEROGETORYLY OF THE HOLY SATMAR REBBE..A ISH KADOSH THAT THE HOLY TADDIUM ,GEONIM WERE IN AWE OF HIM,,ALSO TZADDIKUM , GEOINIM OF YESTERYEAR WHEN THE REBBE WAS IN HIS EARLY YEARS AND THIS LOW LIFE PIECE OF GARBAGE KATZ TALKES WITH SUCH DISREPECT ….SEE GEMORRAH BRUCHOS 19A TOP WHAT HAPPENS..THEN ANOTHER APIKORES IS Eye zeh apikores? SANHEDRIN: ‘AFILI ONE SAYS ONE LETTER IN TORAH NOT MIN HASHUMAYIM IS APIKORES’ …YOUR ‘OO’ CRONIES ARE DEFINATELY OF THAT STOCK. THEN WE HAVE ‘IM HURAV DOME L’MALECH HASHEM TZEVUOUS YVAKSHE TORAH MIPIV’ THAT, ALL OF YOU ARE DEFINATELY NOT

  22. Ysoscher,

    Herein is the essence of the statement what I find that you and many are confused and lost.

    We are living in a generation so into materialism/gashmiyus, that speaking about one “reaching spiritually high” etc is atomically to be praised and revered for doing so.

    The truth of the matter is, people of that generation had total diff taivos. Hence, “Avodah Zara”.
    What do you think A”Z is according to the Rambam and other rishonim? Where is Kishuf come from? what is the sin of במה קרבנות בחוץ etc.

    They are all “spiritual” taivos.

    Basically, it’s a form of connecting to G-D through forbidden channels. Yes, lets assume he was whatever you stated, but that is precisely what AZ is!

    Would you praise the Nevuah haBa’al, Achov, etc?

    The very word of “spiritual” (being used by many nowadays) on many occasions go against the very essence of yesodos in yehadut.

    (see Nefesh hachayim p4, that was one of the essential controversy and fear about Chassidik movement in his times)

    • Anyway’ im hrav dome l’malech hashem tzevuous…vim lav’ which you are of the latter …so you can bring all lomdes , prooves, you are still a heretic. ‘talmud hoyu shematahar es hashrotzim’. Thats why we dont learn from a sefer it it doesn have haskama from a recognized holy godal (not a ‘gadol’ like the riverdale clergys)

      • Jay,

        It would be easier to respond if you provided specifics, examples of where I was matir “es haSheretz.” I’d be glad to respond to them. Otherwise, you’re stam a motze’e shem ra, שאין לו חלק לעולם הבא.

        • On the other hand, I have no doubt that many here would have denounced the רשב”ץ and the מגן אבות as a heretic. The sefer (and many others of that era) would have certainly be banned by many nowadays.

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