Dear Matzav Shmooze,
I received a letter from my son’s yeshiva that left me highly disturbed.
The letter informed me that this Wednesday, instead of a normal half day given on secular holidays, the yeshiva would be closed entirely. The reason given? So that the children can attend the big Siyum Hashas taking place this week.
How can we take children away from learning to bring them to a siyum, no matter how momentous this is? This isn’t my own opinion, it is a b’feresh Gemara.
אמר רב יהודה אמר רב מאי דכתיב אל תגעו במשיחי ובנביאי אל תרעו אל תגעו במשיחי אלו תינוקות של בית רבן ובנביאי אל תרעו אלו תלמידי חכמים אמר ריש לקיש משום רבי יהודה נשיאה אין העולם מתקיים אלא בשביל הבל תינוקות של בית רבן אמר ליה רב פפא לאביי דידי ודידך מאי אמר ליה אינו דומה הבל שיש בו חטא להבל שאין בו חטא ואמר ריש לקיש משום רבי יהודה נשיאה אין מבטלין תינוקות של בית רבן אפילו לבנין בית המקדש ואמר ריש לקיש לרבי יהודה נשיאה כך מקובלני מאבותי ואמרי לה מאבותיך כל עיר שאין בה תינוקות של בית רבן מחריבין אותה רבינא אמר מחרימין אותה
Rav Yehuda said that Rav said: What is the meaning of that which is written: “Do not touch My anointed ones and do My prophets no harm” (I Chronicles 16:22)? “Do not touch My anointed ones,” these are the schoolchildren, who are as precious and important as kings and priests (Maharsha); “and do not harm My prophets,” these are Torah scholars. Reish Lakish said in the name of Rabbi Yehuda Nesia: The world only exists because of the breath, i.e., reciting Torah, of schoolchildren. Rav Pappa said to Abaye: My Torah study and yours, what is its status? Why is the Torah study of adults worth less? He said to him: The breath of adults, which is tainted by sin, is not similar to the breath of children, which is not tainted by sin. And Reish Lakish said in the name of Rabbi Yehuda Nesia: One may not interrupt schoolchildren from studying Torah, even in order to build the Temple. And Reish Lakish said to Rabbi Yehuda Nesia: I have received from my ancestors, and some say that he said to him: I have received from your ancestors as follows: Any city in which there are no schoolchildren studying Torah, they destroy it. Ravina said: They leave it desolate.
I’m hoping yeshivos take note of this Gemara and change their mind about pulling children away from their Gemoras on Wednesday.
Signed, Misayem But Fuming
I totally agree.
The Siyum is a beautiful thing, but does not come close to limud HaTorah. To me it doesn’t seem right to pull a boy out of a Beis Medrash to a stadium, especially right after Chanukah, for any reason at all. Especially with Chanukah vacation preceding the Siyum, it is in effect extending vacation until Thursday, an entire week off.
If the Yeshiva would explain to the boys the chashivus and imprortance of the Siyum, then explain why learning in Yeshiva is even more choshuv, that would be an
amazing lesson.
But unfortunately there might be pressures on the Yeshiva forcing them to give the boys off.
I refuse to attend. I did not go to daf yomi. I closed my gemora in 11th grade. I am a Uber driver.
The gedolim said to go you think they don’t know this gemora
It seems like both sides are missing the point. I’m similarly upset that my son’s Yeshiva will be closed and no, most elementary school children aren’t old/mature enough to appreciate the siyum. The Yeshivos that are giving off are mostly doing so since their Rebbeim are going and it’ll be impossible to have enough competent subs.
The gemara you quote is talking about building the bais hamikdosh not kavod hatorah. I was recently at an hachnosos sefer torah and the bochrim of that mosod came. This is no pesak halacha. Im just saying what happened.
Rav Dovid Feinstein paskened that going to the siyum is kavod hatorah which is docheh talmud torah and all bochurim should attend- as I heard from rav elya brudny who heard it from him
What should the yeshivos do when the rabbanim want to attend?tell them no you have to teach that day? Did it occur to you that the yeshiva may have consulted daas torah and were told to take this course of action?
You make a good point. On the flip side, why is this any worse than children being taken on a school trip or given longer than necessary summer vacations?
It seems to me that going to such an event may even be a way to inspire children who have a harder time learning. While I can’t argue with you and also believe yeshivas should keep that Gemara in mind, I would hope that the mechanchim running the yeshiva have a keen understanding of their field and most likely feel in this instance that they would be giving the children a real lesson in avodas Hashem and inspiration that they could take with them for the rest of their lives.
We can all reply to this misguided letter writer in a more civil manner. דברי חכמים בנחת נשמעין. Poster #4 said it perfectly. Reb Dovid, the accepted authority on life and death shaaylos and end of life shaaylos, gave his opinion. Many others felt the same way! To think that there are so many who will be inspired to learn by the sheer number of attendees is also something to consider. Think that 37 years ago the Biggest Siyum was in the Madison Square Garden arena’s little Felt Forum with a 5,000 seat capacity and today there are so many more is alone testimony to the magnitude of the Kiddush Hashem.
Also, did you think that the Rabbeyim who are teaching our children will be better Rabbeyim through the inspiration that they derive!
Bottom line! The Gedolim thought this through before giving their opinion! Just agree that your קנאות is misplaced here! You’re a good person who is mistaken!
Don’t think you need to fume. This is maamad of tremendous kavod hatorah which one is mevatel torah for in the same way we send yeshivos to levayos. ע”ז נאמר ביטולה זו היא קיומה
If your sons Yeshiva gives off half a day for a legal holiday & you accept it then you can accept when the yeshiva feels the students will gain feom going to the Siyum Hashas Tke Kedusha BORCHU B’Tzibue will leave a lifetime impact on your son I hope as it did for my sons when they were in Yeshiva.& I took them to the Siyum. I’YH I
will be taking a grandson & grand daughters to th Siyum.
Dear Mesayam,
You should pull your son out of the Yeshiva and home school him as it’s obvious that you’re greater than the Hannhala. No doubt you pointed it out to the Hannhala and they ignored you. No doubt also that they didn’t consult with any gedolim (not of your caliber, of course).
Why do you have to be so mean?
Anonymous,
You’re right, I apologize if it came across as mean. However, Mesayam should have spoken to his Rav, the hannhala etc.. before casting aspersions on many Talmidei Chachomim as if they don’t know the Gemorah and only he does.
Dumb stupid misplaced sanctimony. It could be perhaps a once in a lifetime chizuk and hissorirus, and your kvetching about not having yeshiva that morning? The Siyum starts at 1:00. Realistic, you need to leave early enough to get there on time. Traffic will be a nightmare even if you take a charter bus. You come across as an emmesdika selfish phony thru and thru not worthy of a response. I didn’t see your letter of concern about not having yeshiva on erev Yom Kippur, Succos, Pesach, Chanukah, Chal Hamoed, etc… Apparently when the gemorah’s are closed during those times, everything is fine. Hypocrite.
No reason 1st graders should be going. It’s unfair that the yeshivos closed for the younger grades. I, for one, am not bringing a 6 year old.
And yeshivos being off two months in the summer doesnt bother you?
if you honestly want a response , i’ll attempt
1. halevai there would be a stadium big enough , new york has enough frum yidden to fill 4 met lifes, and lakewood can fill one themselves kein yirbu. so practicly there was never the question . it was left for each totty to decide for his children / his mosad- the yeshiva is an extension and are shluchim. ( oh and there is a world outside of brooklyn & lkwd
2. instilling in our children cheshkas hatorah has become more difficult. ” grand events is a powerful tool & sends an important message about whats choshuv.( in eretz yisroel as poor as many are siyumim/ chumash seudos & the like are fancy for this reason)
3. on shabbos i explained to my bucherim that the siyum represents 10000’s of times were a worn out tired hardworking yid THREW OFF HIS COVERS TO GO LEARN or shleeped out dozing to a night shiur as the tanya writes this is a daily akeida on a certain level because u sacrificed another hour of zeese shluf for torah
4.as you look out from the cheap seats get high with this idea ” vloh raah amel beyisroel- the power of numbers the nitzchius ki lo sishkach the nes of the rebirth on american soil
5 i am going by train and will thank hashem that i dont commute this way to work daily but will be humbled by those erliche yidden that do trying to chap some mishnayos or the daf… yisroel asher becho espoer
IN DEFENSE OF YOUR QUESTION; there were gedolim like rav shmuel birnbaum zatzl whos message was that kevias itim was iron clad and nothing changed that maybe thats where you are coming from.. the chozeh had a talmid that made himself a full schedule in avodas hashem 5am…6am.. and he showed to his rebbe for approval.. the rebbe looked it over carefully and took out a pencil and added 2 words ” upeamim lehefech” part of being mesudar is knowing when circumstances call for a temporary change .
practically most yeshivas are open and will be watching on livestream some parts
Dear Fuming,
That is such a nice idea that your son’s Yeshiva had to allow the boys to be part of the Siyum Hashas. Hopefully it will set their sights up, towards one day finishing Shas themselves, something sorely missing from many yeshivos. Consider yourself lucky.
its assur medioiraysa to leave yeshiva and go
Notice that he wasn’t complaining about the fact that this yeshiva gives only half a day on secular holidays. Only the siyum hashas doesn’t deserve any time off, not the secular holidays which have no place in yidishkeit.
The Rambam in his introduction to Hilchos Talmud Torah writes –
רמב”ם הלכות תלמוד תורה הקדמה
הלכות תלמוד תורה. יש בכללן, שתי מצות עשה. וזהו פרטן: (א) ללמוד תורה. (ב) לכבד מלמדיה ויודעיה.
Two mitzvos. Learning and giving Kovod to those who learn. It seems to me that we need to be mechanech our children in all aspects of Talmud Torah – one important one being recognizing and giving Kovod to those who learn.
If you lived in the times of the Bais Hamikdash, you would have said that the Simchas Bais Hashoevah was Bitul Torah! When you learn 15 to 19 hours a day like many that will be in attendance, then you will have an opinion! I assume that Rav Chaim’s psak that everyone should go, means nothing to you! He should have consulted with you first!
Exactly. Very well said. This kadosh vitahor would of said the same thing about Hakhel. Not going to Hakhel. Bittul Torah. Not going to the Bais Hamikdash for shalosh rigalim. Bittul Torah. Not bringing a korban. Bittul Torah.
And when you iy”h make your next simchoh of course your little tsadikel will stay in yeshiva and continue learning as he won’t be the one getting married that day,only his brother or sister,there again bittul torah will be an issue.
can’t understand why you can’t use the day to learn with your son
Is it possible that one of the factors facing the hanhalla was the # of children who would be absent/picked up early because of the siyum. Also, i did not see in the letter whether the writer was referring to a yeshiva ketana, mesivta, or bais medrash.
דעת בעל הבית הפך דעת תורה
You couldn’t have demonstrated it any better.
Again:
הפך דעת תורה.