Dear [email protected],
I am writing to express a concern that has been troubling me deeply. In some portions of the frum community, there is ostensibly concern about avoiding “hisgarus ba’umos” (provocation of the nations) concerning the growth and actions in Eretz Yisroel. However, I find it perplexing and disheartening that the same level of concern does not seem to be applied to Yidden‘s conduct here in places like Boro Park, Williamsburg, and elsewhere.
It is not uncommon to witness instances where members of our community display an air of arrogance and entitlement, asserting their dominance in these neighborhoods and others. Particularly troubling are pictures and videos of individuals chasing down aino Yehudim who attack Yidden, “helping” the NYPD as if we are baalei batim in these neighborhoods.
We’re not. And we’re in golus. Stop “helping” law enforcement. Put away your phones and beepers and fancy gear and go home. Stop taking pictures of you “helping” law enforcement make arrests.
You’re worried about hisgarus ba’umos? There’s nothing worse than this arrogant behavior.
How can we justify a stance against hisgarus ba’umos in one context while seemingly disregarding it in another? Is it only when we’re battling the Tzionim that suddenly hisgarus ba’umos becomes the issue, but when it comes to hisgarus ba’umos in Brooklyn, NY, it’s suddenly not?
This selective application of the principle of hisgarus ba’umos leave me scratching my head.
By humble. Be a golus Yid. Just because you’re on Shomrim or Chaveirim doesn’t mean you own your neighborhood or town. Get off your high horse.
If we are genuinely concerned about “hisgarus ba’umos” in Eretz Yisroel, we must be equally vigilant about our hisgarus ba’umos conduct here in the Diaspora.
Sincerely,
Bent in Brooklyn
All we have to do to achieve “Hisgarus Bau-umos” is exist. Thus, we should be proud Jews, and not buy the anti-semitic gaslighting lies. Hitler Y’MS didn’t need an excuse, we shouldn’t be giving our enemies excuses. We should fight Anti-semitism by standing proud, not by cowering in a corner.
I think the best think we can do is read the First Rashi.
Pardon me, but the letter writer is being utterly foolish.
Overall, I am generally not a fan of the people he is attacking, but this has nothing to do with hisgarus ba’umos. The New York City Police Department welcomes, community patrols, and admits that it relies on them to be their eyes and ears to help enforcement accomplish its goals.
Additionally, protecting Jews ourselves is a fundamental right and responsibility of every Jew.
On the other hand, where the authors attacks would be correctly directed, or in areas where these communities, as communities, provoke non-Jews by illegal land grabs, zoning violations, and ballot stuffing.
There are legal ways to establish communities, and there’s plenty of land where they can go they will not affect the rights of non-Jewish neighbors and communities.
Very valid points. Shomrim and Shmira, like Hatzalah , are viewed by our neighbors as self help organizations that benefit all members of the community. Taking over entire communities by paying inflated prices and changing the nature of the communities through zoning violations and variances is worthy of scorn and brings about resentment by neighbors
Astonishing! This guy thinks that we should not try to arrest those that attack us, and just resign ourselves to letting attackers escape? It is basic hishtadlus that those who attack us know that they will be chased, and we will do everything we can to make them think twice before attacking.
About time somebody called out this hypocrisy. Hisgarus is not just in Brooklyn, hameivin yovin.
who wrote this a 2 year old?
Hisgarus b’umes is specifically a issur to fight “nations” In order go out of tge yoke of gulas. Helping police arrest thogs who try to hurt us had nothing to do with this issur. A little common sense
How does such total nonsense get published here? I strongly feels the frum community should keep a lower profile, be more sensitive to SOME of the complaints said against us by non-Jews etc, It is still beyond ridiculous to complain about those who are involved in community safety. They aren’t looking for fights and aren’t doing anything that any law abiding citizen would have issue with. About four decades ago there was a major fight in Brooklyn one Shabbos .By the time the police showed up two peoples arm were broken by non-Jewish thugs . One of the moetzes gedoley haTorah members who was vehemently opposed to Meir Kahana and co was alleged (from very reliable sources) to have said they should have called the JDL . On Shabbos
Dear bent,
I read your letter over and over and I sincerely hope nothing CHV happens to you where you will need law enforcement and the law enforcement will be forever in coming, thus shomrim stepping in to help. There is no one, no place, that says we have to roll over and play dead. There is no one, no place, that says that we have to be lhavdil like that other religion and turn the other cheek.
Doesn’t chazal say הַבָּא לַהֲרָגְךָ הַשְׁכֵּם לְהָרְגוֹ ??
Seriously, there’s something wrong with people who think that we should just let people step all over us.
He said not to busy with the pictures and videos. Aside for that, Shomrim/shmira are far from the final answer to our problems.
So now neighborhood watches and self defense is hisagaus B’Umos? Are we supposed to let thugs do what they want and rely on the police whether they do an effective job or not? I was watching a presentation by someone who wrote a 1300 page “haskafa” book against Zionism a few year ago. The guy’s current primary audience is non-Jews so this lecture of his was being given to non-Jewish college students. He was talking about his total revulsion for the Zionist movement who criticized the Jews in Russia during the early 1900s for not sufficiently organizing self defense organization when pogroms were taking place all over Russia. These college kids (in a college known for it’s anti-Semitic elements) must have been thrilled to hear him say that Jews are pacifist who won’t fight back. From my end, had I been around back then I would have become a Zionist were it true that Rabbonim really expressed the same sentiments as this guy back then
I don not see a response to the point of Hisgarus B’Umos & Lumma T’sruo.
Could you please translate your comment to English?
I’m curious to read your opinion.
Which Gedolim didn’t approve of self defense back then? What about the lesson from Yaakov and Esav that sometime you need fight. See (For example) the Rambam in beginning of V’Yislach.
I have not seen any historian claim that the pogroms grew worse in response to self defense. Though I have seem a few claim that they were less in places were Jews fought back What is your source for that?
On the surface you bring up a good point. However does the writer have an aino yehudi cleaning lady or live in? You would never find a Yiddish cleaning woman. Is that also hisgarus baumos? Using an aino yehudi and being too high class to do that kind of work. This has been going on since Europe and no one called it hisgarus. The problem in Eretz Yisroel was going against the שלוש שבועות making a medina before ביאת המשיח. That was the hisgarus that the satmar rav but not only him rav elchonon even in the name of the chofetz Chaim etc. true once we are there and we have to protect ourselves, starts the question, satmar and the eida chareidis among other kanoim groups say: give back control of Eretz Yisroel to America England or anyone else that would be safe to be in charge instead of keeping on the fight. However living in galus and helping the law enforcement of your country keep the community safe is very different. Would the writer say that any anti Zionist should let an aino yehudi break into his home and not try to throw him out? Because after all we are in galus so instead of throwing him out just show him your money and jewelry, and maybe as a goodwill gesture give him the keys to your home as well. Difference is we are here in galus not as our own boss but citizens of our host country which allows us to protect ourselves, with the permission of law enforcement. How does the letter writer look at the hidden that joined their host countries armies all the years of galus and were not called hisgarus, since it was done as a resident of the host country not as our own country before the coming of moshiach.
Would love to hear what the readers think about this chiluk
Usually, the passionate anti Zionists lie and revise history. They blame their own humps on the Zionists.
So “Letter Writer”, are you saying: a) be a macher with your phone and beeper (wow, you’re dating yourself, and if I understand you then I’m dating myself too!) but stop complaining about hisgarus b’umos in Israel? Or are you saying: b) hisgarus b’umos is bad and the same way it shouldn’t be done in Israel, you gotta get rid of your beeper and just let Jews get attacked? Hisgarus b’umos is a widely debated issue whose source is a gemara in Kesubos. Whether or not, where, if, and when it applies (applied) has about as many opinions as there are beepers in Boro Park (or at least as many as there once were). One thing is certain, self defense, and protecting others from a rodef is a chiyuv m’diorysa bein b’aratz bein b’chutz l’araetz bein bifbei habayis bein shelo bifnei habayis…
I was wondering if your loved one was the victim of theft or assault and if you would be singing the same tune. prob not. As for people helping the police. Many perps have been arrested and charged thanks to the vigilant work of individuals and organizations like shomrim and Shmira. It’s silly to feel we can allow anyone to loot, assault mug etc and not try to stop. Please leave your address where we should all all thieves and assaulters in and we wont help!!
You are so !wrong!!! The nypd will sit on their hands and DO NOTHING! The heimish neighborhood watch are ESSENTIAL!
I disagree. This is our neighborhoods and yes they should know that we are all one. They try to hurt one person, another one will catch him. This is a true unity. Imagine it was your close relative, would you stand by and wait for nypd handle it? Knowing that their hands are tied behind their backs?
Who ever said there’s such a thing called hisgarus baumos? It only says אל תתגר by edom (their land in the south of EY) amon and moav, no one else.
Wow. Your vast knowledge of shas and poskim must have caused you to come up with that one, of course. Why would you spout such nonsense?
I don’t know if I would call it hisgarus beumos, but this phenomena of shomrim/chaverim taking photo-ops of their members talking on their walkie-talkies and phones while looking over the shoulders of cops arresting a teenager is very not ba’taamt.
I think that arresting the people who harm us is just common sense.
But what’s the issue with hisgarus ba’umos? The Umos Ha-Olam (non-Noahides) get angry at the site of a Jew. So getting them angry doesn’t mean anything. They hate the Torah. They hate everything about us. So killing Islamic extremists or the thugs in Brooklyn is totally understandable.