By Echad Min Hachaburah, Lakewood, NJ
I never in my life thought I would have to write something like this. The Lakewood Tzibur and its Torah manhigim are people who shouldn’t need someone to rise to the occasion to defend. Unfortunately, like many things these days, the circumstances demand something so abnormal.
We are living in incredible times. Times that fit every description Chazal gave of the Ikvesa D’Meshicha, as enumerated on Sotah Daf Mem Tes Amud Bais. Hopefully, we can capitalize on this unique moment, doing our part to bring Moshiach, by engaging in teshuvah mu’etes – each one of us in our own way as we are instructed by our rabbeim.
But what if we don’t? Well, then, we may just be left with all those downsides of this period and none of the upside. It is a scary thought – and one we can already see play out before our eyes to some extent. The very idea that I have to write this, a full-throated defense of Lakewood’s rabbanim and poskim – all outstanding talmidei chachomim who spend their days and nights immersed in the highest level of Torah scholarship – is incredible on its own, and is just one symptom of that more significant problem.
The assault on them using social media and some “frum” websites, the attempts to manipulate them using falsehoods and – when that no longer works – threats, should insult to us all. The fact that it doesn’t seem to be the case frightens me more than anything else.
Make no mistake: The assault is not really about “porch minyanim.” It is not about the public safety of those minyanim – not due to the risk of transmission, nor due to the risk of an increase in “aivah.”
It is about the rightful authority our rabbanim have in our lives as the final decisors of all matter of halacha.
If it were about the risk of transmission of coronavirus, there would be nothing to talk about. The list of “regulations” the Lakewood poskim released essentially forbids anyone to be part of such a minyan unless they are in a clearly-defined self-contained area within their own property, which is not near the property of others. Anyone can go there whenever they would like to – even if only for fresh air. There is no added risk of transmission to anyone taking the opportunity to say Amein Yehei Shmei Rabbah while there.
There is no risk of “aivah” either – and there never was. Contrary to what some people will have you believe, there is no government regulation prohibiting praying while on your porch. So even if some enterprising bigot would call the authorities on such a minyan, there is nothing to fear – and the police will tell you that as well.
The media, whether local or national, has never – not even once – reported on a “porch minyan” as an instance of non-compliance. There were, however, many reports about school busses delivering food. I might have missed the calls to stop all those deliveries because of “aivah,” but I don’t think I did. Even the avowed anti-Semites on social media haven’t figured out a way to portray it as something they can exploit to foment their hate.
No, that’s not what this is about. If it were about safety, we might have seen the people behind the push to ban these totally safe and compliant “porch minyanim” speak up when there were people lining up in the street to buy pizza Motzoei Pesach, demanding all the pizza shops be forced to close. But they didn’t.
Someone cynically joked that it’s a good thing nobody waiting on that line tried to make a Borchu or they would have.
But that didn’t stop these self-appointed leaders from calling the rabbonim and pressuring them to recant entirely – demanding a blanket ban on these completely safe minyanim. One of these “leaders” – who does not live in Lakewood, NJ and probably has never even been here – told a posek that he would put together a letter signed by “150 doctors” condemning our poskim, while sending voice notes around social media blasting “the rabbonim.” Another yelled over the phone Erev Yom Tov that the posek would have “blood on his hands” unless he agreed to a ban.
Shame on them both, and on others who promote the same corrupted outlook.
What is the real issue here? It would seem to be about control and the ability to position oneself as the final authority. Because the actual question of “porch minyanim” is simple enough.
It is as follows: Do we make a “Lo Plug” in this case – and disallow perfectly safe minyanim to have a blanket rule or not?
But here’s the thing. That is not a question for askanim, no matter how vitally important they may or may not be. It isn’t even the realm of doctors – though we rely on them entirely for pikuach nefashos. That itself is a question for our gedolei haposkim – and only them – to decide.
But these “leaders” don’t seem to think so. And this may just be what Chazal mean in saying that in Ikvesa D’Meshicha, the Pnei HaDor will be K’Pnei Hakelev, that Chutzpa Yasgeh, and that these Nearim Pnei Z’Kainim Yalbinu.
The only question remaining is whether we, those who recognize that Al Mah Yesh Lanu L’Hishaein – Al Avinu Shebashamayim, will allow them to continue doing so.
{Matzav.com}
Well said!
My Rav is one of the Gedolei Haposkim who learned under his Rosh Hayeshivah Rav Aharon zt”l. He assurs these minyanim because not everyone will understand that a particular porch minyan is following the rules. Someone will cheat and cross the barrier elsewhere and then someone r”l might get ill and die.
I don’t believe this to be true, no posik would say this. It’s almost like says no one should ever daven in a cramped shul because one my trip and fall, fracture a bone, have complications and die.
Guess its a good thing you’re not a posek
Echad Min Hachaburah,
Thank you for your article.
I am impressed with your writing skills.
I expect that if you continue writing articles you will use the same pen name.
You are right. The letter does not diminish the stature of any rave other than the Eruv rav, The so called politician who’s evil and blackmails. The fact is that this hetter bashes hadchak is obviously not accepted by all. (I’m not sure but it seems based on sh”o harav siman nun hey, seif yid zayin if I’m not mistaken.) However this Rasha who blackmailed our halachik guides, aka our rabbanim is essentially attacking our torah and hence our religion (let alone our freedom of speech).
My Posek is also a talmid of R’ Ahron ZT”L and he holds that we should daven with a minyan. Eilu V’Eilu Direi Elokim Chaim…
But are porch miyanim really a halachic minyan?
YOU MISSED THE BOAT!!!
There are poskim outside Lakewood too, and many are machshiv those just as you are defending yours.
Maybe you don’t realize that the world is watching and videoing frum Yidden davening on porches whether the government allows it or not.
This is all over the Internet, they’re talking about it and blaming Jews, I’ve heard it myself.
Lakewood is also galus.
Stop the hate against Lakewood, as a responsible resident I can assure you that everyone is being responsible and strictly staying on their porch. Its the corrupt left propaganda that has gotten into so many peoples heads.
If you’re really staying on your porch, how do you know what everyone else is doing?
Stop the hate against Lakewood, as a responsible resident I can assure you that everyone is being responsible and strictly staying on their porch. Its the corrupt left propaganda that has gotten into so many peoples heads.
Do you honestly believe that if any minyonim are deemed mutter that others will not pop up with just “minor” changes.
You know as well as I do that this will happen and you’re going to say that’s not my fault…but it is
Are you saying that dayanim and rabbonim who assered porches are not steeped in the highest levels of Torah scholarship ?
This is a programmed letter but that’s ok.
בסד
Wise friends and Askanim
Final word must be in the hands of our Rabbanim.
Having said that — ASEI LECHA RAV is of utmost importance particularly during such a difficult time.
1. Porch minyonim were allowed because the response – having people form clandestine minyonim in their homes without any social distancing – was judged to be far worse.
2. Globally, places that acted quickly to contain the virus have managed better.
Thank you thank you thank you. The constant attack on true daas Torah is nothing new, unfortunately. This latest terrible mageifa only gave the haters an opening to once again spew their hatred for the Torah velt that is machshiv reineh daas Torah.
אשריך וטוב לך. Written so well. As one who has spoken with many in the medical field and askanim. The atmosphere is WE know better than the Rabanim. Finally a straight perspective. Kol Hakavod!!!
reb chaims psak today after eretz yisroel eased the restrictions
שר התורה הגר”ח קנייבסקי מתיר מניינים כפי ההוראות וכזכור שר התורה דרש לקיים את החזרה לשגרה כפי שאמר לבני ביתו, “אם הם היו יודעים כמה
התורה והתפילות בציבור מגנא ומצלא, היו מוצאים פתרון שנצליח לעשות את זה בלי להכנס לסכנה”.
Did he say that because they eased the restrictions? Does he encourage Minyanim in Chutz La’aretz? Where did you hear about this? I am very curious to hear more.
Many rabbonim gedolei haTorah prohibit porches. There is anorher side outside of Lakewood. Sounds like you’re attempting to intimidate .
This is absolutely true. We are witnessing a replay of Moshe and Aharon being challenged for making things “worse” instead of better.
This is a power play by those who have a superficial understanding of Torah to undermine the authority of those who have a deep understanding.
Shlomo warned us about this in Mishlei (24:21) when he said, “Fear H-m, my son, as well as the King…” Rashi explains the message is to always put fear of H-m before fear of government. The Gemara on Sotah (22a) explains the end of that passuk to mean that you should not associate yourself with those “who learn Mishnayos”. Rashi adds… “they are not careful to understand the reasoning of the Mishnayos.”
Fear of H-m before fear of the King, and only true Talmidei Chachamim can make that call… not laymen who can throw around a few Mishnayos…
The explanation is because most websites don’t care about Hashem. They care about clicks.
Other care about power. Yet others are stam corrupted and are controlled by daas baal habayis.
SO we’ve let these self-appointed people turn our community into a wild west
At least this write whoever he is has his head on straight
I just don’t understand why he couldn’t sign his name
Finally someone standing up to defend kavod hatorah and call out the self-appointed people who are busy trying to control the narrative
well done
Wow. This needed to be said and I agree it’s sad that it had to be.
Interesting how we choose to defend some gedolim
The Lakewood Yeshiva holds the allegiance of thousands of the Lakewood residents. The vast majority of Lakewood residents learned in BMG and most of them consult with the Yeshiva’s poskim and their talmidim on a regular basis. Many if not most/all of the town’s rabbanim did shimush by these very poskim. They are perhaps more halachically qualified to pasken for Lakewood than any other posek in any town in the world, barring perhaps Gateshead and some other communities that have a chief rabbi.
Gateshead does not have a chief rabbi, he left and they need a replacement.
Interesting how you consider doctors, gedolim
The one who wrote the article was defending daas toirah, not specifically any one posek over the other
Yasher Koach. Well Said. The bottom line is that our poskim call the shots for us – not the askonim and not even the doctors.
Thank you to the letter writer. I agree with every word! Enough is enough! If Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita and Rav Berel Povarsky Shlita felt it was safe enough to have small minyanim in their own homes, for sure a porch minyan where everyone is spread dozens of feet apart is of no concern. Its a shame that some of these askanim felt the need to hijack the narrative painting all who dare daven in a porch minyan as some kind of condemned murderers. We have always turned towards our gedolim to lead us in times of crisis and this time is no different. The fact that some have the audacity to try and pressure these gedolim to backtrack, even resorting to a form of blackmail is mind boggling.
Ah mechayah!!!, finally someone who called out the self appoint doctor with an inflated idea of his self importance. The chutpaz to Das Torah and to rabbonim is not to be believed
What level of risk makes something asur mipnei sakana, is a porch minyan more danger than smoking , meaning let’s say the conditions are cut in half by cheaters at what point is the risk so great that its asur .in bp most rabonim that closed their shuls still had street minyanim
Well said!! This letter is long overdue! Thanks for defending our gedolim.. As long as the law is followed our gedolim will haVe the last word no some “askanim” with emotions running high.
Halevei our Rabanim would call the shots. Unfortunately the Rabaninim are being harrased and threatened by the “corona mafia” askanim to sign these letters. It’s not daas torah. It’s daas misyavnim of our times.
P.S. During the black plague, 50 million ppl died world wide and not one jew died. The shuls and chedarim remained open throughout.
Perhaps it’s not corona we need to fear, but rather H’.
Perhaps it’s not social distancing we need to enforce, but rather, we need to increase our Torah, Tefillah and Achdus!
You might want to check your facts that no jews died during the black plague. Its a fact, many Jews died.
I’ll take “What is a red herring” for $1000 Alex
It really depends on your outlook and point of view of the matter at hand.
I wonder which “chaburah” the letter writer belongs to. The hyperbolic nonsense he espouses is nothing short of embarrassing.
I know many people who are extremely vocal regarding the absolute need for these minyanim to wait. Not one of them would deny the authority of poskim or rabanim in matters of halacha. To the contrary, they are respectful and full of hachnaah to talmidei chachamim. They are just doing their part to make everyone aware of the very real danger associated with any sort of breakdown in the social distancing requirements.
On the other hand, probably 75% of the ones active in these minyanim are cut from a very different cloth. They are the first ones to make light of the poskim/rabanim/talmidei chachamim that Lakewood is so proud to count amongst its own. Make no mistake about it. Most of the ones pushing the minyan agenda have no special place in their hearts for minyanim OR the honor of the talmidei chachamim the letter writer is claiming to protect. As a matter of fact, if I had to bet, chances are you would find a lot of these guys walking the other direction when a rosh yeshiva comes to say a shiur in beis medrash. When it comes to the honor of talmidei chachamim, they only think its important to force it on the “lay people”. They themselves don’t really see the need for it.
There are no doubt people that sincerely want to daven with a minyan. But believe it or not, many of the askanim who are active in preventing the minyanim would also love the opportunity to daven with a minyan (safely of course). However the responsible, mature and yiddishe approach at this time is one of restraint. Anyone that has any sort of chinuch would understand this naturally on their own. Its unfortunate that this is even a hot button issue.
We should all be zoche speedily to serve hashem in batei knesiyos and batei medrashos happy and healthy.
Talk about hyperbole. כל הפוסל במומו הוא פוסל.
If everyone would have a Rov that tells them what to do that would be the answer. Follow YOUR Rov! The fact that you feel the need to push your hashkafa on me when I have a clear psak from MY Rov that allowed us to have Minyanim with certain conditions all along, is wrong. If your Rov says no, that is great, listen to him!
A dcotor who threatens rabbonim should be ostracized.
Nuff said
100% agree, this doctor has a organization he heads, lets boycott it, there is a similar organization doing the same thing
Safek pikuach nefesh. Nuff said. You can fight the science all you want, but if it’s at least safek Pikuach Nefesh, you stay home. You don’t need a Rabbi to figure out loopholes on how to become a rodef legally.
I’m not sure why you are not posting my comments.
I could guess.
Follow us on Instagram to see the beauty that’s happening in klall Yisroel right now!! https://instagram.com/milashemeilai?r=nametag
If you’re using Instagram to showcase the beauty of Klal Yisroel you’re hopelessly misguided.
The letter writer did not condemn those assuring porch minyanim, only defends the idea that one who allows it is irresponsible. One’s porch, is his own domain. For weeks I have been watching people in Europe and elsewhere clap from their porch, perform, watch weddings…all from their porch. If the porches are far enough away it is an overreach to forbid them. Halchically it is a duubtful minyan though…
This letter is a only a partial response all minyanim are completely mutter if it’s with social distance it’s not worse than going to the grocery I spoke with the Poskim that assured and they said they were forced by askanim th assur even though it’s mutter if the askanim really feel it’s dangerous let them close grocery stores and only have deliveries like they did in telz stone the reason this hasn’t happened since you have people that are overwhelmed with all of the sick people and they think they are in control they don’t realize that there in an Hashem in control and if you go daven with a minyan there is a din of shower pesaim Hashem while going to a grocery store we don’t have that shemira there is no law against divining with a minyan with social distancing
Shehaim Mishtachavim lehevel Varik. If the only thing that counts is Nature and science with no Hashem and no Torah then you make the arguments of the doctors. If You recognize the need to ask for Rachamei Shomaim which is achieved through Tfilah Bitzibur. Then you find a way to have safe minyanim. When you are on a power trip and have the totalitarian attitude that no one is smart enough to make their own situations work and therefore MUST only listen to you then you have Doctors and Rabbonim fighting it out and everyone else laughing at both sides. With a total loss of Emunas Chachomim and surely in the doctors.
First of all, take a deep breath and ask yourself whether you really mean to speak so negatively about some of the askanim, some of whom haven’t gone a day without being in the hospital taking care of people.
Furthermore, many of the same people defending the honor of the rabbonim now are the SAME people who ignored them when they said not to make minyonim.
The rabbonim didn’t mean anything to them then, and only now that they agree with them are they claiming fealty. For all I know, you’re one of those people.
One thing this is not, is about the kavod of the choshuva rabbonim. This is a true machlokes and likely l’shem shamaim, about how to respond to a very difficult matzav.
The askonim and doctors are busy all day with people dying and they see that side of things more poignantly. The rabbonim understandably see it from a different perspective. I don’t know who is right, but I do know that I’m not big enough to speak negatively about either side.
Very well said.
Thank you!
Wow! Honestly, Finally someone speaks up. And alot of credit for Matzav posting it. Ill be surprised if matzav posts this reply.
A hatzoloh member was condescendingly bashing a yid in the store for going to minyanim. He called him a Rodef, Rotzayach and all of the wonderful adjectives. The yid then asked him,” and why didn’t you order your food over the phone?”
The hatzolah member answered,” what do you mean, I have to pick out my chocolate!”
The yid answered back ” and I have to daven.”
People remebered rabbanim all of a sudden. Where were the rabbanim and gedolim that they are remembering all of a sudden when it came to row of breaches that they have been thundering about all of those years?
The real chilul hashem came about when the police started to say” tell your jews to stop reporting on each other.”
That is where you defeat the purpose.
daas bal habayis hefech torah!
What is more mind boggling and sickening, was the animosity that occured between jew to jew. It was shocking to see the hatred from the laymen towards the Bnei Torah which keep the world running!
In any case, I will continue to love everysingle jew no matter what.
Any rav who is asked a sheilah about eating on Yom Kippur by an ill person, will first tell him to ask his doctor. Based on that, he will pasken accordingly; amount, time , etc. No rav anywhere will contradict a doctor , especially a reputable one.
It’s surprising and shocking that some are mevatel a doctor’s advice .
This is arrogance and geiveh. It’s pukuach nefesh, people. Are some of you serious??
The CDC guidelines on Social Distancing are pretty clear. The fact that individual Dr’s want to assur porch minyanim even when they conform with those guidelines, should lead one to question the Dr’s true motives. The fact that the Dr. is not protesting the opening of grocery and other stores as vehemently can lead one to question his motives.
Reputable? or just plain arrogant?. When I ask a shaila about fasting [ and I have] I ask based a one to one situation based on my illness and the side effects, not some blanket unsolicited opinion.
The arrogance is totally on the part of this particular pediatrician who loves the limelight.
Delton….
Sorry.i spoke to my doctor and was told it’s not a problem so I continued going. I Do understand that others will see this and will make their own group of people to pray in more cramped quarters .this is a decision for your Rabbi to decide if he feels that it’s okay to go to the porch Minion or not but no doctor will tell you that a porch minion is unSafe nor does the government have any problems with it . All of a sudden some people have problems with porch minyan being chillul hashem.sad,what they practice and what they do in public and in private is often real chillul hashem
This is like saying “I asked my doctor whether I should eat the food I mistakenly cooked on Shabbos because this other time a Rav told me to ask a doctor whether to eat something.”
This is the big mistake. We __rely__ on doctors. We __ask__ Rabbanim what to do. The doctors present the facts to the Rabbanim, and the Rabbanim Pasken accordingly. Och und vey to a Dor that this distinction isn’t clear, and they think we should disregard the __unanimous__ Psak of Lakewood’s Poskim for those of a few medical professionals – just because they say so.
The gedolim of Israel said בפה אחד מה שיגידו לך משרד הבריאות זה הלכה some things require that the gadol should ask those with knowledge of things they don’t know
If someone in your family died or was sick you won’t have the chutzpah to write such a foolish article. The same goes for all those have respond above and me as well. The poskim who deal with medical Halacha are deeply divided and can’t come to a concenses. That is the real tradegy. Most of the Roshei Yeshiva are not poskim and should not be offering opinions on medical issues.
Your comment makes no sense. I had a family member die unfortunately. That does not mean that social distancing guidelines expand as a result. No one was questioning poskim who chose to prohibit,if they are poskim, they are entitled to their Psak (as you said, there is no consensus). The letter permitting porch minyanim, was signed by all the major Lakewood Poskim
My father in law is in the hospital, I lost quite a few friends and relatives and guess what, the writer is 100% right on
Delton….
Sorry.i spoke to my doctor and was told it’s not a problem so I continued going. I Do understand that others will see this and will make their own group of people to pray in more cramped quarters .this is a decision for your Rabbi to decide if he feels that it’s okay to go to the porch Minion or not but no doctor will tell you that a porch minion is unSafe nor does the government have any problems with it . All of a sudden some people have problems with porch minyan being chillul hashem.sad,what they practice and what they do in public and in private is often real chillul hashem
Your a bizayon to kelal yiroel that realy it
Hi “dead” its apparent that your brain dead , that’s for sure
My opinion
The Aiva being discussed isn’t ordinary hatred on social media from random anti semites.(which we will always have)
It’s the nurses and doctors who work in hospitals that we are relying on to fully help yidden who are sick in the hospital, being that there’s no family there to really advocate for them.
There are countless stories of comments coming from doctors and nurses. Ask any Hatzala or bikur cholim member or patients from the hospital, and you will hear stories.
Even if this aiva that they are having is mistaken and misguided we still must go to the fullest extent to make sure they don’t have any aiva Being that it can have such dangerous Outcomes R”L.
Being that the source is due to a perception of Lkwd not caring about social distancing ,being that we had enormous amount of people admitted to hospitals with covid19 (Even if this was due to many other reasons and on the contrary from the minute we were told to lockdown Lkwd on a 99.9 percent basis fully complied. And most of the spread was from before the rules were in place) and many videos showing a tiny minority of Lkwd not complying.
The only way to confront this type of perception and aiva is to show on clear front from the leaders of Lkwd that we do care and that there are strict rules in place
Therefore they had to stop everything and then allow certain things with strict rules
And yes the aiva will only come from minyan and other religious Gatherings and not from waiting on line in a pizza store
This is all very true… Many ppl don’t realize this
except the instances of Aiva which we have seen reported were never from Porch Minyanim. They were from parties, toy stores, bus runs, and weddings. Please get your facts straight.
Quarantined. The source of the Aiva was the rampant over-development, and changing of zoning laws without care for congestion. Route 9 in Lakewood is a state road used by many from surrounding towns to pass through, and is often a virtual parking lot.
Once people develop an Ayin Raah towards someone else, or a particular group, it is extremely hard to reverse. There are other areas of NJ with many more Covid19 patients. There are videos of many other people actually violating Social Distancing guidelines yet the fake news about rampant violations if social distancing in Lakewood have gone viral because the Ayin Raah already existed.
Where were all those citing Aivah, when all the over-development was occurring? Where these same people now worried about Aivah also the ones who then claimed that defended the over-development by saying that anti-semitism was inherent, and not something that came about as the result of specific behavior?
Why do they find it so easy to close down all minyanim, yet not a sound was heard regarding the over-development?
why didn’t anyone say these things about listening to gedolim when there were porch/minyanim going on even though
many rabbonim said that they were not safe. is it because we only have to listen to rabbanim when they say what feels to US like chumrah?
And on a different topic, why aren’t the doctors were saying that it’s not a good idea to have minyanim enough to have shuls shut down? when it comes to public health we don’t wait for rabbonim to make announcements, we look at those with an expertise in the matter – the doctors.
As r’ yisroel salanter once said, “the biggest mitzvah is seichel.” Minyan is not a deoiraisah or even a dirabanan. its just a hiddur mitzvah. you shouldn’t need a rov to tell you that shuls have to be closed down. it’s common sense. At what point did certain of our communities lose their ability to think independently?
The shulchan aruch says that one must walk a few mil to find a minyan. And dont bring R yisroel salanter as a defense to do whatever you want!
All the people commenting on how there are other gedolei haposkim outside Lakewood who have prohibited ‘porch minyanim’ are completely missing the point.
The letter doesn’t assert that the psak of the Lakewood poskim is binding on the entire world, it just vehemently states that the question of whether to ban porch minyanim IS NOT A MEDICAL ONE, but a halachic one. And that for any doctor to be meiz panav and act contemptuously and even threateningly towards the psak of the Lakewood poskim, is just utterly ridiculous and a frontal assault on kavod haTorah, which is very chamur.
That there are poskim in other locales who disagree, is the regular course of Halacha in the absence of the Sanhedrin, and people in each locale should follow their Rabbonim.
EVeryone is right, and we should just respect one another.
well said, amul in der alter heim ,torah was the way to lead the world, bechlal if a gadol said something that was it ,how dare anyone standup against daas torah ,hashems prime soldiers and those closest to him !!! im fuming how someone armed with nothing but a doctorial degree could argue on the gedoldim HOW DARE YOU !!!! HOW LOW HAVE WE SUNK !!!? MY Tayere yidden hold on to mesorah And dont fall for this 2020 garbage!!
Thank you so much. Greatly appreciated. I was so disturbed to get an e-mail with an audio from a yidishe doctor who so strongly condemned the Rabbinical ruling and ended his words with the following…
We should not be meshadech with people who daven with Minyen. Such unbelievable Chutzpah. He even spiced it up with throwing Daas Torah from a prominenet Rov. I am more upset with the people who quote the doctor with such admiration and respect more than the actual doctors comments.
My reply to the person who sent me the e-mail was…..
“Too much admiration and respect for Doctors And very little respect for Rabonim”
Why doesn’t the doctor realize that when Rabonim come to a psak, they do not take it lightly and they have the true wisdom that comes from the Torah and not from college.
Any article or letter where the author is too afraid to put his name to it is pointless and moot.
Why did only one of the roshei yeshiva sign the letter? Why didn’t all of the roshei yeshiva sign it, or why doesnt it say he’s signing it in the name of all the roshei yeshiva?
https://matzav.com/lakewood-poskim-and-rabbonim-porch-minyanim-are-permissible-with-proper-guidelines/
There are multiple signatures at the bottom of the hebrew letter. Including Rabbi Shustal, Rabbi Forscheimer, Rabbi Felder, Rabbi Spitzer
We shouldn’t be shopping within 6 feet of each other AND we shouldn’t be doing any activity where we might come to be within 6 feet of each other. The GOAL is to prevent passing the germ that might kill someone. I don’t understand all the comparisons in these comments. One wrong doesn’t make something else right.
As everyone knows, the Chasam Sofer (Orach Chaim 102) concurs with the ruling of the Av Beis Din in Cracow, who ruled during the cholera epidemic in Cracow that since there was no levana visible before the sixteenth of the month, and the general populace was feeling depressed and discouraged, they may rely on the shita of a “daas yochid” who holds that Kiddush Levana is valid on the sixteenth of the month, since it is a “sakkanah” to be depressed at a time of “mageifah”.
It would seem that according to the Chasam Sofer the same reasoning would apply to porch minyanim, as prohibiting porch minyanim would be a great sakkana to all segments of the population, because of the angst and anguish it would cause the general population (not just the elderly and immuno-comprimised), who pine for some sense of normalcy in these trying times, and find praying alone extremely depressing, especially Shabbos and Yom Tov (In fact the Doctor who spoke against the Lakewood Poskim mentioned about people who went to pray with a Minyan below the porch of a fellow in his nineties. What he failed to mention was that this elderly Jew was a Holocaust survivor who requested the people bring him a minyan as he had lost his friends and family in the Holocaust, and since that time he had never missed reciting the Yizkor prayer with a minyan. While there is no obligation to recite Yizkor with a minyan, it meant a lot to him to be able to recite it with a minyan, and had they not gone to assist him, the terrible angst he would have felt would have put him in great sakkanah). Thus even if in many of the porch minyanim one would not be “yotzeh” Tefillah BeTzibbur acccording to many Poskim, it would be proper to daven in this manner because of this reason. Thus those who propulgate the notion that it is a sakkana to certain segments of the population to pray with with a minyan, are actually ignoring the fact that its a sakkanah to the general population. Furthermore, even they agree that its only a sakkanah if people dont keep to the guidelines, which is at most a safek sakkana, but this ignores the fact that if all minyanim were prohibited it would be a vadai sakkana, and if so we apply the rule of “ain safek motzi miyedei vadai”.
Best comment yet.
I get my psakim from Chamira Sakanta in the comments on Matzav
The writer wasn’t defending porch minyanim, he was addressing the bullying Dr who has been ranting all over social media. The same Dr that threatened Rabbanim and called a large part of klal yisroel all sorts of names, has been trying to position himself as the medical authority for all of klal yisroel. Even if what he’s saying is true, his methods are what is being addressed in this letter. His methods are against the Torah. Even if you disagree with a rav, there’s a proper way to do so. This same dr led a shabbaton with immunocompromised children during this pandemic. This same Dr swore that patients were being well taken care of in maimonides hospital, when many patients were reporting the lack of care and lack of kosher food service. This same Dr says there’s no FDA approved rapid test, when there are. This Dr is suffering PTSD and is having a meltdown. He is no longer making rational arguments, and resorting to screaming, threats, and lies.
How sad that this is what has become of us. Such bickering and fighting over pesakim of rabaanim. But this I believe is part of a much, much bigger problem. There are many people today that walk the walk and talk the talk but have no idea why they do any mitzva or Hanhaga. They act like good jews and go through the motions. Then there is another group. These people 20 years ago would have been labeled OTD. Today they are considered frum and they would look at you krum if you said differently. AND since I personally know many such people I can say they are usually the nicest people. They are called by different terms depending if your chasidish or litvish. They are called tuna bagels, rolie pollies, yollies, with it, etc. There are 2 common denominators 1) for many is that the Torah is a mere suggestion book. 2) Since the times of Moshe Rabbainu there have been machlokis by us. Usually, we say elu vailu divrei elokim chaim. You have your rov and I have my rov and they are both right. These kids say, Rabbis, when you get your act together, let me know until then I’ll pick the one that works for me or I’ll do what I want. The group most affected by this is the first group. Group 2 will do what they want anyway. The first group wants to do what’s right but since they don’t have a morah derech they get totally confused as to what to do in these situations. This was the same thing that happened with the Eruv in Boro Park. I think in yeshivas there has to be a greater emphasis on emunas chachimim and halacha and most importantly not to look down or disparage other frum jews because they do differently than you.
From the Pasaic Poskim yesterday – (no less Lamdonim than the Lakewood Poskim) (seems exactly L’Afukei from the Lakewood Poskim):
“NO change in social distancing practices should take place. This means that NO gatherings should occur:
NO minyanim
NO playgroups, even informal gatherings of children on the block
NO kiddushim
NO inviting of guests from within or outside of the community
NO travel other than grocery and pharmacy shopping as infrequently as possible
Masks should be worn by everyone when out in public. When possible, this should be
done with children from age 2. The mask must cover your nose and mouth at all times.
We are restating in unequivocal terms that the ban against all minyanim remains in place in the Passaic-Clifton community, without any exception whatsoever. Any easing of this prohibition would be, at the very minimum, a safek pikuach nefesh, endangering the participants and dramatically increasing the likelihood of illness and loss of life in our community. Notwithstanding any policy of another community to the contrary, every resident of Passaic-Clifton must adhere to the safeguards that are essential for the protection of us all.”
Additionally, 350 Frum doctors, including almost all Lakewood doctors (including Dr. Shanik) signed a joint letter screaming not to loosen the social distancing restrictions that were in place even one iota.
Listen to your own Rov.
How is this l’afukei Lakewood in any way besides for in your own head? Because Passaic doesn’t have developments with porches set up the way we do in Lakewood so they say no minyanim and don’t provide for the possibility of a limited Porch Minyan? Everything else is exactly the same.
Prudent shopping stores only allow about 10 at atime, I know a bakery in Brooklyn which provides gloves for customers , which are then discarded. We need to eat, don’t compare it to a minyan. You don’t need a minyan bede’eved, and even not lechatchila.
The doctors are the last word. Period.
I’ve also seen street and porch minyanim where the people are too close together even on a single porch.
Stop playing with our lives. I’ve had family and friends affected by this virus.
DO NOT INFECT OTHERS. STOP .
What happened to אילו ואילו? Some poskim approve, some don’t. so each community follows its rav. @Concerned, you are incorrect about the Black Plague. many Jews died.
If it’s true that they threatened not to treat patients if the rabbonim won’t sign or put out a robo call, they should lose their license and not allowed to practice.
Dumb and dumber
some clown on a podcast interviews a doctor from Lakewood who explains why the poskim changed their mind. But the doctor confesses that he did not speak to the poskim yet goes on to question them and says that it is not the right decision. He calls fellow yidden who daven with a minyan as addicted to minyan. Feh Feh for uttering such a disgusting remark. Could it be that people want to daven tefilah betzibur for other reasons than “addiction”. No that didn’t cross the mind of the clowns on the podcast. And the moderator calls the minyanim misguided the expert that he is he must be a competent Rav! This is unfortunately the sad state of Charedi media
Dearest Dr. Ditchek,
If the Minyanim are illegal then call 911. If they aren’t, and you think they should be, then call (212) 681-4580 (NY Governors office) or (609) 292-6000 (NJ Governor’s office) and convince them to make it illegal. If they change their mind, then send an email to [email protected] (Matzav News) so that we are updated. If they don’t value your opinion, then we don’t either.
Let’s get some facts straight:
The social distancing laws were instituted for one reason only – to FLATTEN THE CURVE. Not to stop the virus, but to stop the hospitals from being overwhelmed. The government was, and is, well aware that they cannot stop it – and they have no intention to. They are relying on the common sense of the elderly and vulnerable to protect themselves – which they are. Most 70+-year-olds are locked up in their homes alone and those who aren’t are doing so knowing quite clearly of the risk they are taking. As for the 50+-year-olds they are all welcome to either lock themselves up or take the risk. Regardless of what they choose – the government intends for 70% – 80% of them to get the virus one way or another or there would be much stricter laws in place. It is up to people to decide if they want to take a .005% chance of dying or not. As for flattening the curve – there are thousands of empty beds and ventilators in NY right now and the number of hospitalized are going down each day – so mission accomplished.
If you think that we as Yidden should be more machmir then the government – then that’s your personal opinion and has nothing to do with your medical (pediatric) background. I – for one – completely disagree with you. I don’t think the price we are paying as a society namely: our kids loosing invaluable time in school and hundreds of thousands of Yidden loosing there parnasa – is one we are willing to pay. Again, if these measures would be able to stop the virus then it’s all worth it. But if the measures are only meant to flatten a curve – which has been flattened – then the brutal price of children not knowing half the א’ ב’ and Jews who lost their last piece of bread is not a chumra but rather a hefkeirus which it’s consequences will last longer than the effects of the virus itself. I completely rely on the government’s infectious disease experts to dictate what should or shouldn’t be done.
Since the days of the Sanhedrin, Klal Yisrael has not been united under one rabbinic authority – and that’s a good thing. For more than a millennium, every Jew followed the words of the Mishna in Avos of עשה לך רב and consulted with his/her Rav on everything he/she did. The idea that one leader/group can superimpose their opinion on another group was first invented by a retard group of so-called קנאים who protested and demonstrated against clear cut psakim from opposing rabbis in the most obnoxious fashion. The fact that you think that your personal opinion is so almighty that it nullifies all those that oppose you – speaks volumes of your character. While I don’t contest that you are indeed a medical doctor and that your rabbi is indeed a great Jew, you are not the only Jewish doctor (no kidding!) and your rabbi is not the only rabbi.
One more thing. The absurd claim of “they forced the doctors” is a claim I last heard at the “international anti-vaccine conference” held annually by our fellow compatriots in Williamsburg. If you are saying that doctors can be pressured to form opinions – then that effectively nullifies every word that comes out of your mouth as well. More so, the fact that you called Rabbi Cohen to pressure him to do your bidding is just as bunkers. It is none of his business and surly none of yours – to dictate to other rabbanim and medical personnel – what is in your opinion the best course of action.
A Jew
Dearest Dr. Ditchek,
If the Minyanim are illegal then call 911. If they aren’t, and you think they should be, then call (212) 681-4580 (NY Governors office) or (609) 292-6000 (NJ Governor’s office) and convince them to make it illegal. If they change their mind, then send an email to [email protected] (Matzav News) so that we are updated. If they don’t value your opinion, then we don’t either.
Let’s get some facts straight:
The social distancing laws were instituted for one reason only – to FLATTEN THE CURVE. Not to stop the virus, but to stop the hospitals from being overwhelmed. The government was, and is, well aware that they cannot stop it – and they have no intention to. They are relying on the common sense of the elderly and vulnerable to protect themselves – which they are. Most 70+-year-olds are locked up in their homes alone and those who aren’t are doing so knowing quite clearly of the risk they are taking. As for the 50+-year-olds they are all welcome to either lock themselves up or take the risk. Regardless of what they choose – the government intends for 70% – 80% of them to get the virus one way or another or there would be much stricter laws in place. It is up to people to decide if they want to take a .005% chance of dying or not. As for flattening the curve – there are thousands of empty beds and ventilators in NY right now and the number of hospitalized are going down each day – so mission accomplished.
If you think that we as Yidden should be more machmir then the government – then that’s your personal opinion and has nothing to do with your medical (pediatric) background. I – for one – completely disagree with you. I don’t think the price we are paying as a society namely: our kids loosing invaluable time in school and hundreds of thousands of Yidden loosing there parnasa – is one we are willing to pay. Again, if these measures would be able to stop the virus then it’s all worth it. But if the measures are only meant to flatten a curve – which has been flattened – then the brutal price of children not knowing half the א’ ב’ and Jews who lost their last piece of bread is not a chumra but rather a hefkeirus which it’s consequences will last longer than the effects of the virus itself. I completely rely on the government’s infectious disease experts to dictate what should or shouldn’t be done.
Since the days of the Sanhedrin, Klal Yisrael has not been united under one rabbinic authority – and that’s a good thing. For more than a millennium, every Jew followed the words of the Mishna in Avos of עשה לך רב and consulted with his/her Rav on everything he/she did. The idea that one leader/group can superimpose their opinion on another group was first invented by a retard group of so-called קנאים who protested and demonstrated against clear cut psakim from opposing rabbis in the most obnoxious fashion. The fact that you think that your personal opinion is so almighty that it nullifies all those that oppose you – speaks volumes of your character. While I don’t contest that you are indeed a medical doctor and that your rabbi is indeed a great Jew, you are not the only Jewish doctor (no kidding!) and your rabbi is not the only rabbi.
One more thing. The absurd claim of “they forced the doctors” is a claim I last heard at the “international anti-vaccine conference” held annually by our fellow compatriots in Williamsburg. If you are saying that doctors can be pressured to form opinions – then that effectively nullifies every word that comes out of your mouth as well. More so, the fact that you called Rabbi Cohen to pressure him to do your bidding is just as bunkers. It is none of his business and surly none of yours – to dictate to other rabbanim and medical personnel – what is in your opinion the best course of action.
A Jew
WOW WOW WOW!!!! you laid it out so well, its not just this ramble but other ramblings this publicity hound threaten the Rabbonim with, maybe we should boycott his organization
One question for the people that are so interested in having porch minyanim (which turn into being anything but a porch minyan, with all the rule-bending). Has even one of you had a family member that died from COVID-19?
Yes, precisely because there wasn’t tefilah b’tzibur to protect
Yes, two cousins and three mechutonim and I agree with the letter writer
Beautifully written and invaluable points. You have changed my mind and I appreciate it.
Uva LeTzion Goel
The doctors are screaming about minyanim as a way to shift the blame. Many of the deaths in our community we’re due…not to the coronavirus…but die to medical negligence and hospital rishus. And the nuts still take folks to hospitals and let them starve our people and vent them unnecasarily and kill more. In Brooklyn, even after eye witness accounts of being denied food and hydration, there is no outrxy of these doctors. These doctors and hospitals are the ones with blood on their hands. Not the porch minyanim. Every doctor who did not treat at home has blood on his hands. Every askan message that told folks to wait out the virus until chest pains set in and then head to the hospital for venting has blood on their hands. Every local doctor who oushed back against trying Dr. Zelenko protocol for high risk patients will answer to G-d for lives lost. I was the shaliach to consult with a top notch cardiologist about the risk to heart, and…drum roll…the not hydrating of the patients in the hospital is way more of the risk than the malaria drug which risk was way under dive percent even with underlying heart conditions.
I see it as an issue of Kol Haporesh Min Hatzibur Ein Lo Chelek BaOlam HaBa. The Rambam says that includes someone that isn’t mishtatef B’tzar harabim.
One of the gezeiros if this pandemic is that we’re all davening byechidos….
Then You Must Be Blind
When BEH this will be over, there will be uncertainty for frum yidden. By pubicly davening where goyim are watching and recording, you are putting every yid who takes a train, bus or just walks on a street — into sakanah. The rise in anti Semitism is rapid. Lakewood is a shtick galus. You’re chas vesholim placing us all in danger. Stop being so arrogant !!!
why wasn’t my comment printed?
Deltan…. sorry my doctor had no problem with it the government has no problem with it now I do understand why some rabbis have problems with it and others don’t. But you are for sure not a player in the game to make any decisions in this matter.period
There are parks that are packed with goyim, not 6 feet apart. There are ball games going on in some places. And noone says anything. Only when it comes to minyanim, that’s when people have a problem.
We need to do teshuva fast! Everyone should listen to his own Rav and STOP JUDGING OTHERS! Hashem is THE ONLY RIGHTEOUS JUDGE!
Let’s start talking about the chesed going on between yidden. There’s so so much good going on between us. Were such a heilige nation!
Let’s talk about the gadlus of Am Yisrael!
Let’s be meilitz tov and encourage achdus achdus achdus and only achdus!! And let’s really try hard to bring the GEULA!!!
Ask your rabbi and do what he says. That’s what Hashem wants from you. He wants the same from your friend who’s rabbi may say something else. and if you each listen to your own rabbi, you both make Hashem happy…. so do just that and don’t look at others.
Everyone has to chill. It really is not such a big deal to do what’s right and what’s right is what YOUR rabbi tells YOU to do.
And just LOVE all your Jewish brothers and make the best of the situation.
DUDES, it will all be ok. Just follow your Rabbi and don’t judge others
Exactly but when you have a doctor who shoots his mouth off and says only his opinion matters and if a Rabbi views things differently he starts insulting him,
When the naysayers care about my other struggles in life, I’ll listen to them regarding backyard minyonim on private property. Until then get lost and get out of my life. You’re a selfish narcissist.